7281. By the CHAIRMAN: You consider that eventually co-operative societies become competitive trading concerns and pay dividends to the shareholders like other institutions?—I suppose they would, but I am a great believer in co-operation, and the Government should subsidise the movement to the extent of £2 to £1 to start such enterprises as milling and freezing works. The Geraldton society had a hard struggle and would have gone under but that they received help from the Government to the extent of £3,000. The State's land policy is wrong altogether. The man should have his land at as low a figure as possible and should have no rent to pay for five or ten years. What we want is the production of wealth, and land is of no value until it produces. It would be a mistake to ask any price for the land here, although it is as good as it is anywhere else. Certainly, it is broken and stony, and so expensive as a consequence, costing 20s. to 25s. an acre first cost. I think we are making a mistake here; we are mulleinising instead of ring-barking, and suckers come up every year. Sheep are our only stand-by, and the Government should see that more of the farmers carried them as it is absolutely necessary to have them. They would not be in the position they are to-day if that policy had been carried out here, but they must first have water and be prepared for sheep. The country is particularly good sheep country and the carrying capacity is one sheep to four acres, but that is only for a few months in the year. Therefore, there should be freezing works at Geraldton, where a mancould get rid of his stock how and when he chooses. There should also be a butter factory and a bacon factory there. We are situated so far away from the market, and if the Government were to give a subsidy of £2 to £1 they could also stipulate that a certain number of producers should be included in the co-operative concern. Personally, I would sooner see freezing works than harbour works at Geraldton, as they are by far the more important at the present juncture. The freight and commission in this district would amount to 2s. 6d. There is another matter. For a certain number of years a farmer should have a stipulated price for his wheat. I think this would be the means of great encouragement to all settlers. It costs at least £2 an acre to put a crop in, and the average price in the Commonwealth to-day is 3s. 2d. per bushel for wheat. If the Government could guarantee 3s. 9d. or 4s. at the port, it would be a safe venture for the Government, and the settler would produce, and it is production that we want. The Government might lose a trifle by it at the start, but would eventually reap a great advantage indirectly from the settlers of our vast area.

7282. To Mr. PAYNTER: That suggestion was made in Victoria.

7283. By Mr. CLARKSON: Would that be a better proposition than giving an indirect subsidy by means of nominal freights and the best facilities for reducing costs. Would not these have a similar effect?—Very probably, but I think the other scheme would be more encouragement to the farmer because it is more direct, but no Government can do too much for the producer of wealth until he is well on his feet. All the country that has been selected since 1910 will be made profitable country, but of course we have had abnormal conditions. Men have gone on the land without capital and are now in a parlous condition, and it will take time to rectify it. I think all these so-called dry areas will eventually be remunerative propositions, but we want expert persons to tell us exactly what wheats will do best here. They should personally visit the country more frequently and experiment with wheats. Wheats grown at Merredin may not necessarily be suited for this district.

7284. How many bushels to the acre must you have in order to pay your expenses?—It costs per acre from £2 to £2 2s. 6d., I think, under normal conditions. I believe that is Knibbs' estimate, but keeping stock will diminish costs to some extent.

7285. Do you think it is impossible to make wheat-growing by itself a paying proposition here?—Not unless you have big areas and a big plant.

7286. By Mr. VENN: You think then that the more you put in the more you will lose?—Not exactly, but our methods are not up to date, and for that, circumstances are responsible. You cannot get a man with means to take up these areas, and the only man you can get is the man who is prepared to run it on his own muscle.

7287. By Mr. CLARKSON: Some of the evidence here is to the effect that the Government lends money to men without money and puts them on the land and discourages them by their methods. More than one man has asked the land inspector to let him stop cropping and go in for fallowing. The inspector has been told that if the settler could have gone out and worked the following year he could have had the whole of his area in fallow, and the inspector has replied that the settler was too heavily involved, and should remain where he was?—I think the Agricultural Bank should make advances for fallowing.

7288. You think they should be told that they must fallow, and that they should have a fair start off?—Yes. I have no further suggestions to offer except in regard to the amount guaranteed for the wheat. It would be an advantage to have freezing works on co-operative lines instead of under Government control at Geraldton, and I would encourage the dairy industry in the same manner and subsidise the co-operative butter factory to the extent of £2 to £1 at least.

7289. Some of the Industries Assistance Board men have been asked whether, if their liabilities were funded and they had 10 years for repayment they could finance themselves for the future. The bulk of them replied that they could. Do you consider that some such scheme would be possible?—I do most certainly because the heart is taken out of them almost, and the brain is taken out of them with worry. The board without doubt has been a considerable help, but the suggestion of funding the liabilities and spreading the repayment over a period of years is an excellent one