7333. Do you think that if the farmer had five years' freedom from rent when he first took up land that it would assist him materially?—It depends upon the man. A man who knows nothing about it would never get on on the land. I had a young fellow who had worked for me for five years and I put him on the land and he went to the dogs. He was all right while he was with me, but he could not get along on his own.

7334. By Mr. VENN: If there was a butter factory at Geraldton would it encourage dairying here?—Yes.

7335. What sheep do you go in for?—The Merino crossed with the Lincoln for the lamb trade, but it costs 2s. 6d. a head to get sheep to the market, including all charges, and 30s. a head for cattle.

7336. Do you think that the establishment of freezing works at Geraldton would help you to a better market for your lambs?—Perhaps it would equalise the market more. Speaking of sheep, I would like to mention the exceptional return I had from a few sheep last year. I do not as a rule carry sheep throughout the year on account of the double-gees. I had 120 ewes. They lambed in July last year, and I sold 60 of them at Christmas for £1 net per head. They lambed again in February of this year. I sold 30 July lambs for £40 net, and this year I sold 80 February lambs in July for £90, while the wool from those sheep brought me in £46. The same sheep are lambing now. That was under normal conditions. The sheep lambed in July in the pink of condition, got in lamb again immediately, lambed in February. A storm brought up the weans and they came in lamb again. I sold 180 lambs in 18 months for £190, and in addition to them there was the wool.

7337. By Mr. CLARKSON: I would like to have your experience at Bowes?—I think that the rent I was called upon to pay was £110 a year at the rate of 30s. and 35s. an acre. When I was selecting I came to the conclusion that most of the people would go in for the land at the bottom side of the property, and it would be no use my looking at that, so I went out to the Northampton end, to what is called the washpool paddock, where I was told the best land was, and there were about 500 acres of it first class.

7338. Do you think that a man has any chance to make good at that price?—No.

7339. Do you think that going on the land in that district is an unprofitable venture, because, without capital, a man would have no chance?—That is so.

7340. Then it is unprofitable, both for the State and the individual?—Yes.

7341. If the individual, when financed by the State, could not make a living out of it, it would be unprofitable for private investment?—That is correct. The two Englishmen who were on that land spent £400 on it themselves, but they were not good farmers. They cabled Home for £700, and I took £300 of it and the balance on bills. When they took off the last crop they cleared out.

7342. By Mr. VENN: Could you get 35s. now for it with the improvements on it?—No.

7343. By Mr. CLARKSON: What should be the maximum price of the average land sold at Bowes and Mount Erin?—I should think £1 an acre.

7344. By the CHAIRMAN: What year did you buy the land at Bowes?—In 1909, and I sold it in 1912, that was the first sale, and afterwards in 1914.

7345. How much land was cleared in that time?—One hundred acres when I sold the first time, and 500 were rung. I rung about 150 acres. Those two men had 200 acres rung for some years, but it wanted scrubbing and packing to burn down. I thought they would get an advance to do that work, but they put a man on and paid him 15s. or 20s. an acre, but did nothing themselves. They had £600 in the bank, and there is but little to show for it. They got an advance on horses. When I sold in 1914 there were 350 acres cleared.

7346. So your man holding it for three years cleared 100 acres and the other persons held it for two years and cleared another 200 acres, and the bank advanced £600. What did you sell it for?—In the first instance I sold it for £1,200, and finally for £500 for my interest, they taking over the mortgage. That was six miles north-west of Northampton.

7347. What was the reason of the failure of both parties?—One man was indolent, and there was want of system. The others I consider were spendthrifts. Practical men with that capital should make a do of it, because they did not have to pay for any machinery.

7348. By Mr. CLARKSON: Do you think they could have got a fair return on their investment?—Yes, I think so.

7349. By the CHAIRMAN: Your idea is that men who buy repurchased estates should put their own money into them?—It depends on the man the bank advances to. With capital of his own and the land at a reasonable price, he could do well, but not under the present conditions.

7350. By Mr. PAYNTER: Do you approve of repurchasing estates?—Yes.

7351. The CHAIRMAN: A man with capital who can pay cash is better than a man who has to go into debt with interest. The kings of finance all know full well that when interest exceeds 4 per cent. it means that men tie themselves down to bondage. Some capitalists hold that a man who pays more than 4½ per cent. interest is a fool.

7352. By Mr. CLARKSON: If the policy of putting men on the land and financing them is continued and if the men are unable to earn the interest on money obtained from the Government, it must be a poor investment for a private individual to put his money into?—When a private individual puts his money into a proposition he looks after it a good deal better than the Government. The man I sold to in the first instance is again on the land, but he will be in debt all his life. He is a good servant, but a bad master. There is a general complaint in this district that we do not see anything of the commissioners of the Agricultural Department. One of them may come along at any time and get on a platform and that is the last we hear of him, because he makes no practical demonstration. I think myself that the best object lesson could be provided by the farmers themselves, who would undertake to conduct experiments under Government supervision.

(The witness retired.)

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