MONDAY, 22nd JANUARY, 1917. (At Perth).

Present: J. O. Giles, Esq., Chairman. B. L. Clarkson, Esq. H. H. Paynter, Esq.

PERCY VINCENT O'BRIEN, M.I.C.E. (accompanied by Mr Weller), sworn and examined:

7511. By the CHAIRMAN: What is your official position? —Engineer for Water Supply, and Mr Weller is my assistant and accompanies me to furnish any details with which I may not be familiar.

7512. How many years have you been connected with the Water Supply Department? —Since 1894, that is all Goldfields areas. Then the Mundaring-Kalgoorlie water supply was added to my work in 1912. For the last four years I have had the Mundaring-Kalgoorlie scheme and some of the agricultural lines.

7513. Have you been connected with the laying of extensions on the main? —Yes, in the agricultural areas. Of course, a lot were laid before I came into it. I ran the North Merredin and a lot of smaller ones. I suppose I have done 350 miles of extensions.

7514. Which was the first agricultural main line off the pipe line east of Northam? —The North Tammin ones were very early. The South Meckering was another. The first extensions were very small, only two of three miles long, but the exact information can be furnished; I have not it with me.

7515. What was the price charged for water on the earlier mains? —2s. 6d. per thousand, the old guarantee system on the extensions.

7516. By Mr PAYNTER: They guarantee so much water for so many years for so much per thousand gallons? —Yes.

7517. By the CHAIRMAN: Under what system were the guarantee systems arranged? What was the argument for charging 2s. 6s. per thousand then and the present argument for charging 6s. per thousand? —There was no acreage rate then. The idea was when a certain number of farmers wanted a main, we estimated what it would cost to lay it and supply water and 2s. 6d. per thousand was already charged for the 30-inch main. We stuck to that price on the extensions and supplied farmers at 2s. 6d., and they in their turn had to make up an annual payment equal to ten per cent. on the cost. They were allowed waster at the rate of 2s. 6d. If a man undertook to put up £10, he would get 80,000 gallons of water, but all the contributions had to amount to ten per cent. on the cost of the main.

7518. By Mr CLARKSON: In what way did the department arrange that one man should pay £10 and another £20? —The settlers arranged that. The department said it would cost say £2,000, and it was for the settlers to say how much each would guarantee.

7519. By Mr PAYNTER: They had to make a trust, as it were, among themselves? —Yes. Each man gave his personal guarantee.

7520. By the CHAIRMAN: But the department collected interest annually on the earlier extensions? —No, they collected an annual payment equivalent to 10 per cent. on the amount.

7521. By Mr CLARKSON: From the departmental pint of view, you considered 10 per cent. was fair interest on your money. Was it worked out that way? —the amount we got practically paid the cost of the extension, including sinking fund, but practically the water was given for nothing from the 30in. main.

7522. By the CHAIRMAN: Then the guarantee system amounted to this —that the settlers were supplied at 2s. 6d. per thousand conditionally upon their paying 10 per cent. of the cost of the service? —Hardly that. They agreed to make a certain annual payment and it was not laid unless the amount reached 10 per cent.

7523. And the officials contend that for this water the State received nothing, it being supplied free at the main? —That is so.

7524. Your contention is that the State got nothing for the water but was paid for the branch main? —Yes, water being supplied from a 30-inch main free.

7525. By Mr PAYNTER: Did you calculate the amount pro rata on the different holdings? —We took no notice of area under those conditions, but it can be worked out roughly.

7526. By Mr CLARKSON: Did you consider under that scheme that it fully covered the department? —We lost the cost price of the water.

7527. That is the cost of pumping water from the Weir to the junction of the main? —That is one way of looking at it, but you must remember that the people got the benefit of the water because other people were drawing on the water further on and it was paid for by the goldfields community. The additional cash outlay was the cost of pumping stations.

7528. What would the cash outlay amount to per gallon? —About 1¼d. per 1,000 for each station pumped through.