from one section of the community to the other. That is no way in which to reform. The present Government might say "We will do that," but the next Government may reverse the position and say that the agricultural industry has to carry its own burden and that they will not permit the one industry to transfer to another. That would only be a temporary expedient and not a reform in the true sense of the term. I have had occasion to give a good deal of thought to the question, and went to the extent of endeavouring to lay something before Parliament; in fact I spoke on the matter last night in the House, but I was after a permanent reform. I think you should go into the question more deeply. One of the matters we ought to review at the present juncture which is as essential as the water question is to the industry, namely, the matter of superphosphates. Why should the supply be left to private enterprise which exploits the farmer year after year. One cannot examine their books and ascertain their profits or dividends. The supplying firm is Victorian. Something in the direction of superphosphates would be a permanent reform, and it is certainly unfair to allow a private Victorian firm who increase their profits every year by providing an article to the farmer that is as essential as water itself? It is not a policy that the country can endorse much longer. If you tackle the superphosphate question and make it a national affair you eliminate all private dividends and give the farmer a permanent reform. So also in regard to jute goods. The farmer should be protected from being exploited. The State should step in and control the lot. To-day the farmer under the I.A.B. gets his bags at the highest 9s., yet I am charged 9s. 6d., and the cheapest this year was 9s. 3d., although the man under the Board only pays 9s. Actually he should get them at 8s. 10d. Such a procedure as I have indicated would be in the nature of a permanent reform. You would be interfering, it is true, with the trade of individuals, but you would not be robbing them because they would be forced to become good producers themselves instead of remaining middle men. In other words, you take from the individual instead of from the people of the State. So with wire netting and wire and other commodities. It is in these directions that the farmer is carrying the burden to-day; but if you start by tackling Government concerns you merely transfer matters from one branch to another and eventually there will be revolt.

7786. By the CHAIRMAN: While it is sound reasoning that the different sections of the community should not assume the burdens of other sections, I would like to refer to the sand plain country valued, say, at 4s. 6d., the holder of which is called upon to pay fourpence per acre, and it is therefore impossible for him to carry on. We have big areas of sand plain no doubt contiguous to the main, and it can never be occupied while the sand plain carries a rate of fourpence per acre. What adjustment must be made whereby the legitimate industry could stand the charges imposed upon it?—There is not a great deal of sand plain because we endeavoured to dodge it as far as we were able, and in any case sand plain is not a big item, but I am prepared to admit that the question of relieving the second class country in respect of the rate is well worth consideration, but if you do relieve it it must be on the distinct understanding that you must increase it on the first class country.

7787. By Mr. CLARKSON: We have too many temporary expedients and not sufficient reform, but in regard to the agricultural extensions I think it would be a matter of permanent reform. If it is a practical idea to substitute by means of dams on settler' holding the use of the extensions now in existence, it would be a permanent reform for this reason: we are aware that settlers cannot use that water at the present rates and the industry cannot use it at a profit. That being so the payments show annual deficiency, and as a fact two-thirds of the amounts owing are not collected?—If the rates were reduced and some substitute provided to take their place during their lifetime, that would be a permanent reform. I admit that their is reason in what you put forward, but when you realise that the whole thing will be free of sinking fund and interest in eight years you will grasp that the rate can then be reduced, not only to the agricultural, but to the mining industry as well.
    
7787a. Could it be reduced even then to as low a figure as a system of our own?—I think it would be cheaper if you consider the capital cost of your tanks or dams and the fact that you cannot lay your water on from them always. Because, after all, that is a question of piping.. But the whole matter resolves itself into one of figures, and I regret that Mr. Trethowan is out of the State just now; but it would be an easy matter to figure out what the rate would be in eight or nine years' time and compare that with the cost of putting down dams. You have your mains there, and that is increasing capital for the time being. The opinion I have formed is that it would be sounder policy to stick to the mains rather than to go to the increased cost of putting down dams.
     

7788. By the CHAIRMAN. You cannot pay 6s. for agricultural water nor half that sum. The scheme seemed to have been devised at a juncture when there was urgency to relieve distress, but it is too costly relative to its value to the industry. The question of carrying it on is now paramount?—But they do not pay 6s., they pay the fourpenny rate.

7789. They are charges 6s. a thousand?—But it is the fourpenny rate that counts. It does not matter what you charge for the water provided you get sufficient for your requirements. The farmer gets more than he requires in many cases. If they use only ten thousand gallons you might say it costs £1 a thousand, but that makes no difference in the ultimate result.

7790. By Mr. CLARKSON: Actually although they are entitled to thirty million gallons the farmers only use twelve millions?—It is the rate that counts not the price of water.

7791. By the CHAIRMAN: The mains are designed to convey it during a period of 84 days. They cannot supply any more water than that limit?—We went into that matter carefully so as not to put in too large a main.

7792. But the water is 6s.?—That has not a great bearing on the matter. It is the rate that counts as long as the amount of water they get for the rate is sufficient for their requirements. They pay the rate whether they use it or not.