farmers so long as they had an opportunity of filling the ships they had in view. They admitted that the ships were not in sight and said there would be a rot. That showed that something had to be done. I discussed with my Minister the advisability of considering the question of the formation of a pool. I referred the matter to Mr. Gosse, of Geo. Wills & Co., who promised to consult Mr. Harold Darling. Mr. Darling said the scheme was not practicable. At the conference which was held, on the motion of my Minister, it was decided to proceed with the pool. The drawing up of the details was then left to the various officers, of whom I was one. I had a considerable amount to do with the drawing up of the conditions. These conditions were submitted to Ministers and approved of by them with some alteration. The principles have never been departed from.

8812. By the CHAIRMAN: If bulk handling came in, and the wheat was handled throughout the Commonwealth through the pool by bulk handling trusts and made available in three grades of uniform quality, how would you encourage the world's competition?-- That would not be separate from the pool. The pool would have control of the whole of the wheat and there would not be the competition of one farmer selling against the other. It would not prevent competition, however, but would make it keener. It would certainly simplify matters if bulk handling came in.

8813. By Mr. PAYNTER: Could you estimate the value that the pooling system has been to the farmers of the State?-- It has saved the industry and has averted financial panic and chaos.

8814. Will you state your connection with the inauguration of the Industries Assistance Board and the advantages received therefrom by the farmers?-- Without the board 75 per cent of the farmers would be off their holdings to-day. The board is the result of evolution. It was started in 1911 with the Seed Wheat Board, of which I was a member. The settlers were provided with wheat, and seeing that we had assisted them into a hole from which they could not get out without further assistance, and because some of their importunate creditors were getting all the money, and others were none, something further had to be done. Unless something was done the settlers would have been forced off their holdings or into the bankruptcy court. In order to deal with the situation, I had a voluntary arrangement with the Chamber of Commerce by which they agreed that they would not press their claims, provided the money was distributed in an equitable way. I undertook to do that, and indicated the lines on which it would be distributed in an equitable way.I undertook to do that, and indicated the lines on which it would be distributed. During that year we distributed £40,000 of the settlers' money. Next year we required seed wheat again, and in this case the merchants and the farmers wanted to obtain the seed the seed wheat from the Government. I opposed that and appealed to the Chamber of Commerce to the effect that it was not desirable, and would destroy the farmers' sense of commercial responsibility, and also stated that the Government were not in a position to finance it at the time. The merchants then agreed that year they would finance the settlers during the coming year if I would undertake to distribute the money. On this occasion past experience showed that some modification of the method of distribution would be necessary. I made these modifications. Then we had the great drought, and it was necessary for the State to come in. That started it, and we then did by Act of Parliament what had been done by voluntary arrangement between the merchants and the settlers and myself acting as mediator. I largely advised my Minister in the drafting of the Act, and was called in on several occasions to advise as to its provisions. The Act has been passed and I consider it has saved the industry, and is one of the most beneficial pieces of legislation which has been put on the statute-book. It has enabled us to make the farmers perform good farming operations as far as possible by withholding financial assistance if they do not do this. The general treasurer of Massey, Harris & Co. said to me, after perusing the Act, that it was the most statesmanlike thing which had been placed on the statue-book in any part of the British Dominions.

8815-16. What advantage do you think the Grain and Foodstuffs Board has been to the State?-- It has ensured to the farmer what was then the ruling price for his wheat, and also that he should get the best possible seed that was obtainable in the State for his purpose; I am referring to acclimatised seed. Without that board it would not have been possible to have prevented the fearful mixture of seed and the worst class of seed being sent out. It enabled the 1915 crop to be put in, which gave such a start towards this present crop.

(The witness retired.) _________________

THOMAS SYDNEY McNULTY, Under Secretary for Agriculture, sworn and examined:

8817. By the CHAIRMAN: What is the system of control in the Agricultural Department?-- It is Ministerial. The Under Secretary controls for the Minister and acts as his deputy. In technical matters a great deal of liberty is given to the experts of the department such as the three Commissioners, the Chief Inspector of Stock, and the refrigerating expert. The work of these officers is of an advisory nature. The three Commissioners have also to run farms. In running these farms they are given the utmost latitude. The only way in which the Minister or I come into the matter is to see that the finances are in accordance with the Treasury requirements, that the Tender Board regulations are complied with, and that the audit requirements are satisfied. Beyond that the Commissioners run these farms at their own discretion. At the same time, anything up to ten times a month, they come in touch with the Minister. The other sections of the department are represented by trading concerns. We run the markets, refrigeration works and abattoirs. We are also collecting the fruit tax. Mr. Moody is running an orchard at Brunswick which will shortly come into bearing. There are two distinct phases of the department. There is agriculture generally, dealing with agriculture, stock, fruit, etc., and then there are certain industries which have been brought in under our control. We have been scrupulously careful to allow the Commissioners to run the farms their own way. They put on what men they like and sell what they like. I have always held the view that the men on these farms, run by Mr. Sutton and Mr. Connor, are not of sufficient calibre to do justice