would carry three or four sheep to the acre. My orchard consists principally of apples and pears. Stone fruit is not profitable so far away from the line. My cost are not very high. We simply prune and spray. I do not cultivate the orchard at all. It is extremely rich volcanic soil. I can grow 10 tons of potatoes to the acre without manure. They are put in about September. There are natural springs in many parts of the place. My average apple crop is about 200 cases to the acre. We have had 20 cases off odd trees. We cannot always get a satisfactory market for our fruit. My average price for the last four or five years has been about 5s or 6s. If we had to cultivate our land we would require more for our fruit. I think the use of second hand cases would be too risky. I have seen woolly aphis crawling about so-called fumigated cases. Moreover, the second hand cases require building up to render them fit for repacking. Even if the use of second hand cases meant a saving of 7s. per dozen, it would not be attractive to growers. I think the cost of new cases could be very much reduced if we had a tramway out to the Porongurup's, where we could get suitable karri. There is no real objection to karri cases as against jarrah. It is about 15 miles from Mt. Barker to the best karri country. I have a saw mill. I have been supplying cases at 7s. a dozen at the mill and 10s. at Mt Barker.

9835. To Mr VENN; The capacity of my mill is about 1,000 cases per week. I have an 18 h.p. Crossly engine. I find the Up to Date" the best all round potato. I have tried the Delaware. The Beauty of Hebron" does well, but buyers have an objection to the deep eyes. There is a good deal of the very best potato land in this district, but it is in small patches on the tops of the hill. From our place the haulage of 17 miles kills the potato proposition. We have a few cows. They do very well. There is green feed all the year round. Two of my neighbours are sending their cream to Denmark.

9836. By Mr CLARKSON: Have you any suggestions as to what the state might do for the betterment of the industry and the encouragement of the land settlement?-- I think the Government should run a tram out to the karri and start a sawmill. The settlers might run a mill on co-operative lines if the Government would subsidise it. The proposed tramline would serve a number of settlers at the Porongurup's. All that would be required would be a mill of about 30 horse power working all year round, the cost of construction being about £1,500. My Crossly engine cost me less than £200. A steam engine would be cheaper to maintain. I have two men at the bench and two more getting logs. Given a tramway I am sure private enterprise would establish a mill in the karri. The cost of clearing green timber in my locality is from 25s. to 30s. per acre. The cheapest way of tackling the country is to ring it and leave it until it is dead, about 12 months afterwards. It will not sucker more than once if at all. It can then be cleared for about £20 an acre. They are big trees. We have got 3,000 cases out of one tree. It is frequently 100 feet to the first branch.

                                                                    (The witness retired.)

WILLIAM TAYLOR BUTLER, farmer, 12 miles west of Mt Barker, sworn and examined:

1937. To Mr CLARKSON: I have been here six years. I hold 1,100 acres, of which 16 acres is cleared. Clearing costs from £14 to £20 per acre. I have seven acres of fruit trees. I grow a little oats for hay. I carry a few sheep, not more than 190. My fruit is principally apples. I have never had any return from my orchard. That is due in part to kangaroos having stripped the trees when three years old. All my land was sold to me as first class country. I am far from satisfied with my proposition out there. The thickness of the timber is the chief difficulty. There is also the excessive wet, the ravages of wild dogs, destruction by kangaroos, and the dying off of the stock. I do not know of an poison on my block. The stock died mostly through starvation. There is no natural grass there and the country is very thick. When I went on the place there were 300 acres ringed. I kept attention on that with two men for three years. We suckered and burned as required. We might just as well have thrown our money into the sea, for the place is worse to-day than ever. The undergrowth has thrived remarkably as the result of being knocked down and burnt. The prospect I have in staying on is my passing through the bankruptcy court. Since last rent day I came into Mt. Barker to work. I have asked the lands Department for a re-classification and they replied that if I would send them the sum of £2 10s. They would re-classify my land. I told them I had not the money, but that I would drive any officer to and from the place. I paid as deposit to go into it £250. I have spent over £1,200 on it since 1911 and to-day it is useless. I have neighbours within two miles. Their country is neither so thick nor so wet as mine. I do not consider they are making good. I have to depend on what I get from my place but my neighbours have independent incomes. So far I have been living on the means I brought into the country and I have now run to the end of my resources and I am compelled to go out and earn wages. Before coming here I was a farmer in South Australia. I came to Western Australia and made a selection of land at Kelmscott, which I put under orchard, paying £8 an acre. I was there 12 years and found it a first class orchard proposition. I sold it at £99 per acre plus improvements in the shape of building. For two years I was in business in Perth as a contractor to the State and Commonwealth Governments, supplying nearly all the furniture required in State schools and public buildings. I am a carpenter and joiner by trade. I sold that business and came here because I prefer the open life. My father, a farmer, apprenticed me to carpentry and joinery. I went back and managed his farm for five years and eventually left it with my younger brother who has it to-day. It is in the bills district, not to far from Adelaide. I would have done better to cut my loss here years ago, but I felt that I ought to stick at it while there was a possible chance. My fences are the first that the dogs come in contact with, and consequently the dogs get into the stock. My neighbours are protected by my fences. I can ride my fences once and sometimes twice a week during the dogs season, and I have kept them at bay as well as I could, but during the last three years I have lost £100 worth of stock. I suggest that the Government should give me my homestead, house and barn which are on the place, and the 160 acres.