or five cases, he reduces the freight appreciably. Storekeepers in the country get their supplies from us in 15 or 20 case lots.

11986. By the CHAIRMAN : The statement has been made to us that as high as 70s per case is charged in the South-West? — I cannot give any explanation of that unless it be that he storekeepers have sold out in small lots, for which they expect a fair profit, and probably have provided for long credit.

11987. How ever, there is a distinct remedy if the settler likes to buy from Perth ? — On the figure you have named he could effect a big saving, especially if he bought in lots of four or five cases.

11988. Can you give us the railage on a single case ? — A single case to Bunbury would cost 5s. 6d.; two cases would cost 7s. 3d. ; and the freight on 20 cases would work out at 2s. 6d. per case.

11989. Is there a good supply of explosives available ? — There is a very fair supply in Western Australia today.

11990. By Mr VENN : Suppose the Government gave you an order for 4,000 cases. Could you give them a cheaper quote ? — They would be quoted on the schedule exactly the same as any other buyer.

11991. But there would be a reduction on a big order like that?— The quote would be 45s. per case. On so big an order we might possibly ask authority of our principals to name a special rate. The Government use a fair quantity of explosives.

11992. By the CHAIRMAN : If the Government paid 45s. and distributed at 52s. the margin would be only sufficient to recompense them ? — That is so. there are so many small orders. The agricultural community is very fortunate in having explosives at all. In Victoria today no explosives are permitted to be sold for agricultural purposes.

11993. By Mr PAYNTER : Is the effectiveness of explosives at the same high standard as it was before the war ? — Not as regards gelignite. that has been brought about by the fact that we are not allowed to import any nitro-glycerine explosives containing over 50 per cent. N. G. We are allowed to import a certain percentage of gelatine dynamite for use in tight ground in mines. The restrictions have been arranged by the authorities here who will not permit of its import.

11994. Yet the present standard is estimated to be sufficient for practical use ? — yes , except in some of the mines. For agricultural purposes it is all that is required.

11995. By Mr VENN : Was gelignite going up in price just before the war ? — Yes , slightly. Just before the war we were laying ourselves out to create a market in explosives for agricultural purposes. We even sent men through the agricultural districts demonstrating. But he outbreak of war made essential the conservation of explosives for other purposes, more especially mining.

(The witness retired)

GEORGE LOWE SUTTON , Commissioner for the wheat belt recalled:

11996. By the CHAIRMAN : Referring to the statement handed in yesterday with regard to the cost of the Brunswick State farm, the question asked was — what was the total expenditure on the Brunswick State Farm to date, with all interest and charges ? That is a perfectly clear question, and calls for a perfectly clear statement in reply. What do you intend that this statement should convey to the commission ? — This information is information which can only be supplied by the accountant, who has given in this statement such information as is supplied under the method according to which his books are kept. He says that no interest on expenditure has been added in the department books. Later on he gives you as far as his books show the difference between the expenditure and receipts, but states that no profit and loss account is kept. Evidently the Treasury regulations do not require that to be done.

11997. You will see from the top figures that without careful observation one would say that £16,623 represents the cost of the Brunswick State Farm without interest to date? — What is the question?

11998. What has been the cost of the Brunswick State Farm with accumulated interest and charges to date? Will you give me an answer to that question from this statement ? — I cannot do so. I understand that you have remitted this question to Mr.Trethowan this morning. He has again referred to the accountant to see if that officer could obtain from his books more information along the line that is required.

11999. And you have come up again without the information ? — I came up here because you sent for me.

12000. We did not send for you particularly. The department voluntarily sent along yesterday to give information , and as you were the witness we asked you for it. What is the good of witnesses coming here if we do not get along any further? — All I know is that, with a desire to assist you in your deliberations , I voluntarily came here yesterday to amplify the information which has been supplied to you in response to the questions which had been submitted by you. I do not know that I can express or convey to you my desire to assist you in giving that information in a more marked way than I have already done. This morning when it was conveyed to me that you wanted to see me again. I came up at once. I know that an endeavor is being made to supply what you asked for. If the books are not kept so as just to supply the information at a moments notice——

12001. It is not a moments notice; you have had since the 4th April to supply this information? — The position is as I state , that he information, so far as I know, can only be supplied by the accountant.

12002. Do not you think that, in view of the fact that the farm was losing from £1,300 to £1,800 per annum during the years 1912 to 1916 , inclusive , it is reasonable for the Commission to assume that from 1906 to 1911, inclusive, the farm was also making losses ? — I am not able to say that . I am not able to assume that at all. I have no idea.

12003. I am not at all impressed with your answer. It is quite possible that for the years 1906 to 1911, inclusive, there is a further loss of £5,000, £ 7,000 or £10,000 not set forth in this return ? — I can only reiterate that i am not able to answer those questions and that it would be obviously improper for me to express any opinion with regard to that mat-