years that would be 800,000, or dividing it by two it would be 400,000, and the waste would be something like between 50,000 and 100,000 loads?—Yes.

12109. The next question is, what is the value of a load of timber to this State?—It is the cost of value of producing that timber plus the percentage on profits which is paid to the State in taxation and so forth. I can only give you the figures approximately because the milling people have refused to give me their cost figures. At the same time I have figures which I can rely on, though they are if a general character. In 1913 the total marketable timber cut in Western Australia was 365,000 loads valued at £4 2s. per load. That is the value in ship's slings. Of this 365,000, all did not go into the ship's slings. There were exported 272,000 loads, a little over a million pounds worth. The home consumption was 165,000 loads. If we take the same figure, £4 2s., as the market value in Perth or other towns in the State, which is a moderate estimate, because, as you are aware, timber is dearer, if you take off freight, in Perth, than in South Africa, we have 165,000 loads for home consumption which should be valued at £402,000 or in all the cost value of timber for the year 1913 would be £1,402,000. That is the actual value of the timber for sale. There is then the money spent in wages, freight, harbour dues and so forth. That may be put down at £3 10s. a load as compared with £4 2s., the sale value. So going back to the 365,000 loads, the sale value of that you put at £1,402,000, while the cost value in wages, etc., is £1,277,000. The different between the two would be the profits of the firm, of which a share goes directly to the State in the form of taxation. the £1,277,000 is the money spent in Western Australia in converting the cut of 1913.

12110. That would indicate the value of the load as being £3 10s.?—Yes, that is not counting profits and taxation. That is the total cost of production.

12111. What is the average yield of a karri forest in loads per acre?—The average yield is 40 loads per acre, taken over two years' cuttings. I was able to arrive at this by having surveyed the whole area at Big Brook, cut over by the mills since their erection at Pemberton. In addition to the 40 loads cut there were 15 loads to the acre left behind, of which five loads were contained in long butts. The remainder was timber which the fallers would not take for private reasons of their own, but which ought to have been milled. In addition, there was the over-matured timber which they had to leave, and the young timber which was broken down in the falling. Leaving out the young timber and over-mature timber, the total timber which might have been utilised was obviously 40 loads plus 15 or 55 loads.

12112. When giving us the value of a load of timber to the State, the figures you use related to timber in the square?—Yes, and the figures I am now giving you are round.

12113. Can you form any opinion as to what the original timber in the round is worth?—In Karri it is worth one-third of the product, working on a 33 per cent. recovery.

12114. Taking 40 loads to the acre, 33 per cent. would be 13 loads of timber in the square. At £3 10s. this would be £45 worth of timber per acre in the round?—Yes.

12115. So the average value of timber in the karri forest would be substantially £45 in the round as it stands?—Yes, at the present time under our primitive system, and in the absence of any valuable market.

12116. What is the comparative value of rich lands for forestry purposes or for agricultural selection?—The value of a piece of forest country from the forestry point of view can be divided into two. There is the value of the forest crop which is immediately utilisable and the value of the forest growth and which is able to produce forests for all time. There are two values, the value of the present crop standing on the ground and the present value of all perpetual rentals that can be derived from that country through the forests that are going to grow there. When a piece of forest has been worked over by a mill and all the timber removed, there still remains the forest soil, which is like the capital in a bank, capable of yielding interest in perpetuity. It contains the forest humus and the forest seeds. In respect of karri country, I am able to give figures because there was an area of country in the karri forest which was worked over by DeCourey Lefroy in the early days and completely cleared. This was behind Big Brook. The area was 40 acres of which seven acres was entirely cleared. I was able to measure the timber that had grown up, and so get the average acre increment which amounts to a little over 120 cubic feet per year of growth in actual timber per acre. That piece of country had been burnt over several times. No care had been taken of it. Under proper forest management karri will put on between 400 and 600 cubic feet per acre per annum. So, while the first value, the value of the present timber crop is easily ascertainable, the value of future timber is not quite so easy to ascertain, because it depends on the forest policy of the State. If the forests are going to be looked after and operations conducted in order to improve the conditions of the young stuff growing up, then of course the forest value of the future will rise enormously. But even taking the increase on Mr. DeCourey Lefroy's block in the karri country, on a 100 years' rotation, you will get 100 times two loads to the acre or 200 loads. The value of future crops of timber is obviously the present value of all perpetual rentals derived form those future crops cut every hundred years—it is more likely to be 80 years. Therefore, our future forest crop, if we have no forest policy at all, might be taken at two loads times one hundred, or 200 loads. It is growing at the rate of two loads a year, and if in 100 years we cut it down we will have 200 loads. Big Brook has cut six hundred loads to the acre off certain patches, so 200 loads is not a high estimate for an even crop of timber. In a virgin forest the forest is dying at the rate at which it is growing; the big trees are overshadowing the little trees, and there is always a minimum of timber on the ground in consequence, whereas if you cut a whole area flat and allow the timber to come up, you will have a maximum of timber on that area at the end of a rotation. It is a conservative estimate for cleared country to say that 200 loads is the average amount obtainable at the end of a rotation. Again, during the last 100 years, timber has quadrupled in value, and there is no saying to what extent it will increase. Certainly, within 100 years it will be four times the value it is to-day, so if you put that timber at £5 per load, you will be on the