make a very cheap pipe in order to be able to use them for that class of work, which admits of a cheap pipe, inasmuch as there is very little pressure. I experimented on a pipe, and was able to get moulds for a 9in. pipe, and I made pipes of the 9in. size, which we have used at Harvey. But it was found impossible to get the materials for making the larger size moulds. That was the reason why the pipes were dropped.

12233. A witness at Harvey has stated as follows:—"With regard to the indemnities, I did not sign one, and there were many others who did not. At the time, I was looking after orchards held by absentees, and the consent of not one of these was obtained. The work was done on those obtained, without the consent of the others." You were not successful in obtaining indemnities all through?—No. We were advised by the Solicitor General that in the case of a mortgaged property it was necessary to get the consent of the mortgagee also. So that we only went so far as we were able with reasonable cost. With people who were away from the State we did not go any further. The main reason, as I explained, for getting indemnities was to avoid claims afterwards for damages. We got past that as far as we could by getting indemnities where possible. In the other cases we had to stand the chance of a claim. I may explain that that is done in drainage work as well as in irrigation work.

12234. Then we understand from you that you are not aware of any dissatisfaction on the part of the Harvey people with regard to the open channel scheme proposed by you?—Yes. I was not aware of any dissatisfaction at the time, But I should like to produce the files on that point. Certainly, the committee as a whole was not opposed to the scheme. I think there is direct evidence as regards that on the files. My evidence is only from memory as to a matter which occurred many years ago, and the other evidence would be more exact.

12235. Did you consider that the scheme was one suitable to the Harvey district?—Yes.

12236. How did you consider that the question of underground drainage was going to affect the area when irrigated?—When the scheme was started, the drainage at Harvey was very much better than the drainage in any other irrigation scheme in Australia. Every other scheme that I have knowledge of was started without drainage. In some cases drainage was put in in parts later. Other schemes still have no drainage. So that Harvey was specially suited in that way. I might draw your attention to a note in my report, Appendix 1 of the engineer's report, referring to seepage, which is understood in irrigation countries not as being a soakage of water from the channels, but as being the efflorescence that occurs in arid countries. I have stated in this report as follows:—

    Fears have been voiced that seepage troubles may arise: Care would have to be taken in this respect, but it might be pointed out that the Harvey settlement, with its complete drainage service is in a very much safer position than most irrigation propositions, where the seepage troubles have come about by the total lack of proper drainage: As a point of practice at Harvey, it will probable happen that in cases where there appears to be a chance of water logging, a short line of under-drain to the nearest open drain will settle the trouble.

12237. Where does that occur?—On page 6 under the heading of channel lining.

12238. Notwithstanding the drainage system which has been put in at Harvey, was not the Harvey district considered to be one lacking in underground drainage?—It was just an ordinary type; it was certainly lacking in very free drainage channels, or it would not have been necessary to put in that drainage system.

12239. There is no depth of 6 to 10 feet of soil with free drainage as is usually the case in irrigation schemes?—I am afraid those conditions do not usually obtain. I have a pretty good knowledge of schemes in Australia and in many it does not obtain. At Yanko it does not. At Mildura it does not. Harvey is quite on a par with the arid lands irrigated in Australia. Renmark is another place in point with clayey sub-soil.

12240. How do you propose to get over the trouble of applying it to ungraded orchards?—The land generally has a very suitable fall for irrigation. There is an average fall to the west of about 2 feet in every 10 acres, and it was considered, with a certain amount of smoothing, that any difficulties as regards watering could be overcome. That has been borne out by fact, because a great many people have irrigated without any grading at all, not in accordance with my advice, because I consider that even where the land is planted and has a reasonable grade, it is desirable to a grader at least once up and down between the rows to make an even furrow, to save the pooling of water in low spots, and it is a great advantage, particularly an advantage in growing potatoes, to provide the water in such a way that none runs over the surface or collects in pools, because potatoes are very sensitive to water. Potatoes in low parts would be very poor or perish. Taking it all through, the Harvey land as regards the grades, it is very suitable. There are certainly cases where the land was very rough, and it was necessary there, instead of attempting to water right across, to water in four or five different ways. Whether the land is planted or not it is very inadvisable to attempt very heavy grading for the obvious reason that it would mean the removal of the whole of the subsurface soil and the exposure of the subsoil, which would take years to weather and to become of use. Grading, in any case, should be used for the purpose of general smoothing. It should not be done heavily to avoid the slight extra trouble of watering two ways, i.e., taking the water round a block to water both ways to the centre. It is quite impossible economically to grade a very rough block in such a way that it can be watered right across. This plan (indicating) shows the contours for the whole of the Harvey of every foot, the contour line being an imaginary line drawn on the paper in one particular level. An inspection of it shows how the blocks, grade, and taking it all through there is a very good grade on the blocks.

12241. But in regard to the use of open channels, the country, being sometimes unsound ground with veins of sand or rubble in it, do you consider its lay satisfactory for planted orchards?—So far as those occurrences exist at Harvey, some experiments were made and some measurements taken by the