have. The measurements which we have taken go to show pretty conclusively what the channels are like. I would also point out that some of the blocks on the Harvey, experience a certain amount of water-logging, which is not due at all to soakage from the channels, but due to soakage from other blocks which have been irrigated. When a 10-acre block is irrigated, it means the placing of many thousands of tons of water on that block; and it would be absurd to think that the whole of that water could be contained on that block. The soakage from that block would be ever so much more in magnitude than the leakage from any channel which had been in use for some time. Recommendations have been put up already for the purpose of improving the drainage system at Harvey, in order to cope with that particular matter.

12267. After you deliver the water from the channels, what has been the experience; has it been found practicable to apply the water to the orchards at Harvey and keep control of it?—Yes. The irrigating in some cases has not been carried out so expeditiously as it might have been, simply because the settlers have neglected to do a little grading between the trees in order to keep a graded furrow; and in those cases difficulty certainly would be experienced. But in cases here the thing has been done in a proper way, there is no difficulty at all at Harvey any more than there is difficulty anywhere else. Dr. Harvey's Orchard of 70 acres has several times been watered in a few days simply because that has been handled well.

12268. Is there a seepage trouble at Harvey?—There is no seepage. That is, taking the proper meaning of the term. Seepage is efflorescence which causes so much trouble in some places through the water-logging of the country. There is no seepage, and there is not likely to be, because seepage is practically confined altogether to arid areas.

12269. Would you describe what you mean by the term "efflorescence," which is new to us?—At Mildura, in the early days, there was a loss of water form the channels, and resultant water-logging, which was very much accentuated by the flow of surplus water from the irrigated blocks. Mildura had a rainfall of an average of, say, eight inches. When irrigating started, the water applied during the year, including rainfall, was equivalent to about 32 inches. Consequently, of course, the underground drainage, which was quite suitable for the small rainfall, became quite unsuitable for the extra surface water, with the consequence that the water level was raised in many places. In some very shallow places the water actually came to the surface. In other places it came within evaporating distance of the surface. In those cases the water would come to the surface, be evaporated, and leave any solids which might contain upon the surface. The solids gradually accumulated, and as they were salts of magnesia and chlorine, they gradually produced an efflorescence, which destroyed the texture of the soil and made it quite unsuitable for vegetable growth. That is what is known in irrigation parlance as seepage. There is none of that at Harvey. In any case where there is a heavy rainfall, any small amount of salt made during the summer is leached out through the heavy winter rains. It is only in arid climates, where sometimes there is a winter without any rain, that accumulations like that can occur. So there is no seepage at Harvey; but there has been soakage and waterlogging in places, undoubtedly. It is very difficult to say whether it was from the channels or from the excess water from the blocks. The department have done a good deal already in the way of improving the drainage to cope with that. It has occurred in cases where there is a natural hollow in blocks with no natural or artificial drainage. I know of no such case where there has been difficulty where the block has been properly under drained, because the under draining of course, if sufficient to take away the heavy winter rains, would easily take any summer water.

12270. By Mr. VENN: Are there many blocks affected in this way at Harvey?—There are several. There are blocks on No. 2 channel which appear to be suffering, but which, I think, could be fixed up by an improvement of the draining. But that is by no means altogether due, as has been stated by some people at Harvey, to the leakage form the channels.

12271. By the CHAIRMAN: We are not talking about the channels now. We are asking you whether there has been any seepage at Harvey, and whether you can control the water at Harvey, or whether it gets away. You say that there is no seepage, but that there is waterlogging. The water does get away; it gets away form the irrigated blocks and collects in the depressions?—Yes. It collects in depressions in the blocks in some cases. That will always occur; but it is not because the water is not under control.

12272. By Mr. VENN: It is because the man has not his land properly drained?—Yes. One cannot control all the water that is put on the block. The theory is that one should let the water run until the land is soaked between the furrows., and soaked down for three or four feet. That would be a first class watering, if one could get it. Now, the whole of that water will not stay in that position. In some cases the soil gets oversaturated. In that case some of the water will go down until it reaches a pervious strata and will run away, and come out at the surface lower down. That is inevitable.

12273. Experience shows that drainage which was reputedly good enough was not good enough?—Yes.

12274. We visited some places where the drains were not running at all, almost stagnant?—Yes, that is so.

12275. By the CHAIRMAN: I believe the scheme was originally designed to irrigate the area as a citrus area?—Yes, it was considered the block would be a citrus area.

12276. By the CHAIRMAN: I believe the country will go out of the citrus culture and be diverted to other uses. Will there be sufficient water to irrigate the area in that case?—Yes, I think so. The available water is obtained in two ways, first by the summer flow of the river, and, secondly, by the storage. Those two combined. Taking the lowest recorded summer flow we have, we got about a foot of water in the whole of the area. That is called an acre foot. In arid countries very often we allow a two acre foot, but I am of opinion an acre foot will suffice, and it was supported by Mr. Mead, who was asked to overhaul the scheme in the early stages. Mr. Mead was