land, is that, given suitable conditions, the grass grows by magic. No one knows where the seed comes from. There are naturally cleared patches of country down near Esperance, such as one might expect to grow grass, but one does not find the grass there.

668. There has never been any stuck on the mallee country, whereas in the Eastern agricultural areas, there has been stock, and the grass has come as a result of the stock?—No, I think the grass will come independently of the stock. At Norseman there is a lower rainfall, but better feed, because of the grass and saltbush, although a lot of the country is timbered with salmon gum. When getting towards the coast we find that the soil is not so good, but that the grass is better.

669. Do you consider that any mallee country has ever carried grass in its natural state?—Not much, only in the bare patches. There is mallee country at Broomchill and we do not anticipate the slightest trouble. We know that as soon as the mallee is knocked out we shall get grass. One can go out in the wilderness where there has never been a sheep and clear the land, and the grass will grow.

670. Is not salt peculiar to the whole State? Take Cowcowing, for instance, have you never seen dams made there into which the salt comes?—It is salty country. Although there may be salty country elsewhere in the State I do not think that the analysis of the actual soil which is producing the wheat will show as high a salt percentage as .05. In the Eastern districts where the salt, owing to the clearing, is accumulating both the wheat and the grass die. Several salt pans in those districts which were not there originally have come of late years, and when the salt gets beyond the point of tolerance, not only will the wheat not grow, but the grass will not grow.

671. In most of these places there is a lot of magnesia?—Yes, salt and magnesia.

672. The combination is more deadly than common salt?—Yes. We relied upon the knowledge of Mr. Mann as an agricultural chemist, the work of his staff, and the inquiries made by them for the information that it was dangerous to engage in wheat growing upon soil which yielded as great an amount of salt as 0.05. Mr. Mann stated that many American authorities disagreed with that and gave a much higher percentage of tolerance. His analysis of the Esperance Bay soils was, to a large extent, based on .05, and when we come to the subsoil, which was the worst feature of the lot, the percentage of salt is higher still. The argument of Mr. Sutton that the rains would wash the salt off the surface and into the subsoil did not carry very much weight with us, because I concluded that when the wheat plant roots got into the subsoil their condition would be worse than when on the surface.

673.You say that Mr. Mann is an agricultural chemist?—I am not sure that he is, but I know he has an agricultural chemist on his staff who has had experience as such in Victoria.

674. Did you inquire as to where the samples of soil came from?—There were some 200 to 250 samples taken from all sorts of places. I did not inspect any of the places from which they were taken. A considerable portion of them was obtained by Mr. O'Brien. He made an exhaustive report, and running right through it was the tone of an apologist who was evidently anxious to smooth away the ugly features brought into existence by the salt. Academically and theoretically he wanted to explain them away a bit.

675. By Mr. PADBURY: Were there any figures or any quantity of land represented by any of these samples? Did he give you a table? The samples might have been cut out of salt lakes for all you know?—You must give Government departments some credit for honesty. You do not expect a Government officer to build up a case, but to offer reliable information which would be a guide to the settlers.

676. Would you be surprised to hear that some of these samples were taken out of a salt pan?—That would not be a fair test.

677. Was any discrimination made with any of these samples as to the places from which they were taken?—Many individual instances were quoted in Mr. Mann's report.

678. Did you represent any definite quantity of land?—If he took a fair sample it would represent all the land about where the sample was taken from.

679. You did not satisfy yourself that these were fair samples?—I should think I was charging a department with dishonest practices.

680. Were you satisfied that they were taken from the Esperance district?—Well, the report was on the Esperance district. I did not follow up Mr. Mann's tracks to see whether he was taking the salt out of the sea; I gave him credit for honest motive. His report gave a warning note to go a bit slow in settling the the lands. He put up a kind of danger flag, "Here is salt, go slow."

681. By Mr. McDONALD: The point we are trying to get at is that Mr. Mann seems to have analysed these soils labouring under the impression that all the soils were taken from a fair average of the country?—He would think so.

682. And we discovered that some were taken from salt pans where a man would not dream of growing wheat?—Did you trace up the samples?

683. Mr. McDONALD: We cannot find Mr. Middleton's plans. A surveyor generally does things thoroughly and he would have prepared plans and marked each spot so that it could be located.

684. By the CHAIRMAN: Did you see Mr. Middleton's report?—I read all the literature I could get a hold of.

685. Mr. Middleton's reports should be attached to Mr. O'Brien's?—I read the jacket that was given to me that had been prepared on the Esperance soils.

686. We have not been able to obtain Mr. Middleton's report from any of the departments?—I saw a long report from Mr. O'Brien.

687. We do not want to convey the impression that any doubt is thrown on Mr. Mann's analyses. We feel sure they were correct?—I think any one would take it for granted that if you get a report on a lot of analyses of soils for the purpose of forming an opinion as to their wheat growing possibilities, these samples would be given in such a way as not to cloud the object. You must remember that if you get a rid of the salt at Esperance by any means, you have not got rid of the facts.

688. What facts?—That there was a very poor average extending over a number of years both of hay and wheat. The fact that there was a lamentable absence of grass coming, the fact that where the phosphate had missed the yield was absolutely nothing, and to start cockying under all the