to get the mallee practically clear to prevent the roots taking up the moisture, but it is necessary to have artificial fertilisers, and not one of these settlers could get the adequate quantity, in some cases not any all. The cartage was prohibitive, and the assistance bestowed by those in authority, even if they granted any, was dilatory and disappointing. A man's time was wasted. I know in one case that a man went three or four times to Norseman on information that he would find superphosphates awaiting him there, and when eventually he got it it was harvest time, and not sowing time. The consequence was men there had no chance to work in a proper manner the country they had taken up. I never heard of any district which had more hardships to put up with and was more neglected by those in authority then Esperance.

1093. Are you personally interested in agricultural pursuits?—Yes.

1094. On your visits through the district as member for Esperance you probably met a number of settlers from the mallee at Grass Patch and Seaddan?—Yes.

1095. Did you on those occasions advise the settlers of their isolated position, and the impossibility of carrying on profitable farming so far from a market?—To tell the truth my convictions were such that I felt that it was only necessary for the Government to send its proper officers there to see the place for themselves to come to the assistance of the district, and give them the facilities they required, as was done in other parts of Western Australia. So that I did not encourage them to throw it up; in fact, I feel now, with all the discouragements, the day is coming when there will be a flourishing population right from Norseman to Esperance, and for miles upon each side of the route of the railway. I had a long conversation, and travelled there, with Mr. Middleton; I think he brought the first samples for Mr. Mann to analyse, and he had travelled great distances to the east, and the same distance to the west. We know what the land is a little west of the line; we know that it joins on our recognised agricultural land, where it is payable, and where the Government is giving facilities. But to the east the same kind of land continues, and these were his words to me, "I know no part of Australia where the land retains its uniformity to the extent it does in this district." That was between where I met him approaching Grass Patch, and some miles to the north of it.

1096. Whilst your Government was in power we understand a grant of £50,000 was made for the development of agriculture in the Esperance district: when was that money made available, and how much was actually spent?—I cannot say how much was actually spent?—I cannot say how much was spent, but I know it was foolishly advanced, and when I say "foolishly" I mean irritatingly. The plans were constantly changed, and , I say it with every respect, the settlers were a good deal humbugged in the way in which they received assistance, and it therefore did not give them the benefit of being prompt, in time, and it was not judiciously advanced to them.

1097. Was this amount of £50,000 placed in Mr. Sutton's hands for the development of the district?—He was an adviser, I think, but he could speak for himself better than I can speak for him. I think he was considerably harassed by other external limitations.

1098. What department would be responsible for advising Mr. Sutton in the matter?—He was connected with the Agricultural Department. Just about that time it was that the present predecessor of the Industries Assistance Board was instructed to assist settlers generally, and it was with some hesitation that the help given to other parts was extended to the Esperance district. He had to contend with the Agricultural Department officers, and I think to some extent with the Agricultural Bank and the Treasury. He had not at all plain sailing; the task was difficult, and he had not the officers at his disposal to investigate. A good deal of haphazard guess work there was in the matter.

1099. You do not consider the fund was administered in the most effective manner?—Without blaming anyone in particular, that is correct. This part of Western Australia was treated as a foreign land. It was like sending something to Timbuctoo, which no one cared or thought about.

1100. Was it not within the power of your Government to make an alteration?—Yes; but no Minister of a big department can keep in touch with the details of the work. You have to rely on your officers and all external machinery to your Ministerial position.

1101. Did you ever ask what induced Mr. Mann to make the report?—No, I never asked him personally; I never spoke to him on the subject.

1102. Mr. O'Brien was appointed to make certain investigations; to have land classified and report to the Government, we understand?—Yes.

1103. We have also ascertained that his report cost £1,264?—Yes, it was a pretty extensive investigation. Mr. Middleton was on this very work when I met him travelling on the line east and west, taking the samples and testing the soil, and making investigations in regard to water catchment. I do not think it cost more then a similar investigation would cost in other parts of the State.

1104. Can you explain why Mr. Mann's report, which was dealt with in Mr. O'Brien's report, has been given such prominence?—When Mr. Mann says that the soil is of such a character that it will not grow wheat for the salt contained in the land, and I year after year have seen the same area flourishing with wheat crops, then either Mr. Mann's report is not accurate scientifically, or science has not said the last word on the subject.

1105. You never realised, I suppose, that Mr. Mann had not been supplied with full data of the soils he analysed when he made that report?—I should not have been surprised at anything about that part of the world. It has been done in a slipshod manner; it has never had a thorough test.

1106. We would like you to give us any information that you know of in connection with this matter?—What I do know is that wheat will grow and oats will grow. I have a specimen of wheat in my office in Perth, which was sent to me from this district grown last year. I have had specimens, too, which I have exhibited to members of the Government and members of Parliament, going on three years ago. The 1914 season was bad there, but I still saw wheat growing, but not payable. At that time it was bad all over the State. At my own farm I did not get seed wheat off it. It was one of the most expensive seasons I have ever experienced. It was similar in the Esperance district, but I have witnessed these crops year after year with that one exception, and therefore I know positively that wheat and cereals