7342. They had to supply so much flour on the Imperial order at a certain price? — Yes. 7343. When they had a portion of the wheat ungristed, did they return it to you, and did you allow for the price of 4s. 9d., and did they only get 2½ per cent. for gristing afterwards? — I do not understand the question. We took over, as on the 3rd November, all the stocks of wheat, flour, bran, and pollard. 7344. And you had to pay 4s. 9d. for the wheat? — We had to pay them for the wheat if they had already paid for the wheat, but as a fact they had not paid for any of the wheat under the prior agreement. They do not pay for the wheat under the prior agreement. They do not pay for the wheat until it has been gristed, either for local consumption or for private flour export or for the imperial flour order. 7345. At the same time it was sold to them at 4s. 9d. and they were expected to pay that for it? If they had paid for it, you would have had to refund the amount? — Yes. 7346. And then they get 2½ per cent., after that, on the gristing charge, on the price which the Imperial flour order worked out at? Or let me put it this way: the miller is getting £10 18s. 6d. for flour. I am basing this on Mr. Forrest's price; I may not be right. The millers seem to be of the opinion that that £10 18s. 6d. was equal to giving them in 2½ per cent., commission, which they would have made if they had sold the flour at £10 18s. 6d. to the Imperial Government? — Yes. That is their argument. 7347. Therefore, by your taking the wheat from them, and they having gone by a gristing charge of only 7d. per bushel, the four being yours when gristed, they claim the 2½ per cent. was only equivalent to what they would have made if they had sold flour instead? — That is what they claim. 7348. It is not additional charge of 2½ per cent.; they do not sell the flour to the Imperial Government at £10 18s. 6d. and then get 2½ per cent. on that? — No. 7349. By Mr. BROWN: Have you copies of the New South Wales, South Australian, and Victorian gristing agreements in your office? — I do not think there are any gristing agreements at all in the Eastern States, with one exception, the agreement with Thomas & Co. of Adelaide. Mr. Baxter got hold of a copy from Mr. Thomas well after the time the present agreement was entered into. Unfortunately, however, there was one in the possession of Mr. Sibbald, although none of the other officers saw it, when he made certain recommendations to the Minister for this gristing arrangement with the millers. The Minister said he never knew of that copy, that Mr. Sibbald had never shown it to him or discussed it with him, and that the first he heard of any gristing arrangement with Mr. Thomas was some months after, when he was passing through Adelaide, and he was chatting matters over with Mr. Thomas. The Minister asked Mr. Thomas whether he would mind letting him have a copy of that agreement. Mr. Thomas got a copy struck off, and the Minister brought it back with him. Mr. Thomas mentioned to Mr. Baxter that he had already given a copy of the agreement to Mr. Sibbald. When we were told that, we suggested to the Minister that we might write and ask for Mr. Thomas whether that copy of the agreement was given to Mr. Sibbald in his private or in his official capacity. Of course we knew what the answer would be. Mr. Thomas said it was given to Mr. Sibbald in his private capacity. 7350. By the CHAIRMAN: Was that while Mr. Sibbald was manager for Thomas & Co.? — I think not. 7351. I formed that opinion from reading the file? — I think, if you look at the date of the agreement with Thomas & Co., you will find that that is not so, but I am now speaking only from memory. It was not given to Mr. Sibbald when he was manager for Thomas & Co.; it was given to Mr. Sibbald on one of his trips East while he was manager of the Wheat Scheme. 7352. By Mr. BROWN: When does the Scheme's contract with the millers expire? — At midnight on the 3rd November, 1918. We have only a month to go. 7353. In view of the difficulty of taking stocks at the commencement of the agreement, are you at present making arrangements to take stocks at the end of the term?— We are trying to have a clean up of each of the mills. 7354. You are now setting that in motion? — Yes. 7355. By Mr. HARRISON: Are you determined about that? — Yes. 7356. By Mr. BROWN: I suppose you are controlling the mills now so far that you could order them to stack wheat in certain ways? — I do not think that we could. I am not sure. Mr. Gillespie has been in close touch with the mills, and he has got the stocks idea at the back of his mind all the time, because it is most important for us, for the present agreement, to know what the millers have made on the thing. 7357. That is just the point I want to know, whether everything is now being fixed up in the mills so that you can have a clean satisfactory to the millers and to yourselves? — Speaking generally, I think so. But that is not my duty in the office. That is the general manager's function. 7358. By Mr. HARRISON: Is it not true that the Scheme did not get any increase from the millers, such as the Scheme had from the acquiring agents, on account of climatic conditions? There was a discrepancy between the figures? — I do not know what the reasons were. All I can say is that there was not the same proportion of surplus out-turned by the mills as by acquiring agents in connection with wheat acquired by the mills from the Scheme for gristing on their own account. Your question applies only to wheat purchased by the mills for turning into flour, bran, and pollard, to be sold by the mills on their own account. Your question does not apply to wheat delivered to the mills during the present gristing agreement. 7359. Would that interfere with your being able to reach finality with regard to stocks? — I do not think so. 7360. You have had difficulty in assessing the quantities in hand at the mills? — The amount of stocks generally, yes. 7361. And you realise from Mr. Brown's question the necessity for getting finality before the incoming agreement? — True. 7362. Have you taken particular steps, as suggested by Mr. Brown, to have stacking done under particular directions in certain parts of the mills, so that there may be no difficulty, when the new term is entered upon, as to the quantities contained in the various mills of the various commodities, such as wheat, flour, pollard, and brand? — I do not know that that has been done. Nothing can be done to overcome all the difficulties. No matter what we do, there are sure to be difficulties with the mills. 7363. Have the Scheme considered the matter of supplies to the consuming public? Do you anticipate cleaning up with all the mills at one period, or are you separating certain mills for certain days? — I do not think it can be done for any particular day, but I know that the general manager has in view cleaning up before any new arrangement is made with a particular mill. 7364. As a Scheme you are determined to have finality at this juncture? — Yes. 7365. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: The Imperial order placed with the millers was for milling and not gristing? It was simply to a purchase of the wheat, and a sale of the flour to the Imperial Government? — Yes. 7366. By whom was this order arranged with the millers?—By the then general manager, Mr. Sibbald, on general instructions from the Australian Wheat Board. 7367. And who fixed the quotas to be given to the various mills? — They determined that amongst themselves. 7368. Was there any definite agreement, or simply an understanding? — Just an understanding. 7369. Not even confirmed in writing? — No. I think certain aspects were attempted to be confirmed in writing; but the general manager — I am speaking now from memory — considered that it would be inadvisable to enter into a specific contract with the millers along the lines laid down by the Australian Wheat Board, because he was really getting better terms at the time we got the instructions from the Australian Wheat Board. He said he was content to let things go on as they were. 7370. So that any miller who had not really paid for any wheat for the completion of his quota, really had no legal claim at all in that connection for any commission on output on behalf of the Imperial order? — I would not like to say that because there is nothing in writing; there is no contract.