wheat he required rather than make any fresh gristing arrangements. Acting on this understanding with regard to the supply of wheat for your mills, supplies have been regulated as indicated yesterday to Mr. Ockerby, so that your Kellerberrin mill will get sufficient from Nungarin to keep it going to just about 3rd November. It had been our intention to send some wheat from Bruce rock to enable this mill to keep going after that date, but in view of Mr. Ockerby's decision we are arranging to divert the Bruce Rock wheat elsewhere. The position then, so far as your Kellerberrin mill is concerned, is that we will only have the last season's wheat now stacked at Kellerberrin available to sell to you. Under no circumstances could we guarantee being able to supply any greater quantity of last season's wheat, and certainly not without payment of additional expenses incurred by back railage, etc. We are putting this clearly before you now, so that there can be no possibility of you misunderstanding the position. Does this mean that the Scheme refuse to sell you any additional wheat unless you incur considerable additional expense? — That is so. The Scheme say, as the wheat has gone, if we do not make a gristing arrangement with the Scheme, the wheat will have to come back at our expense. 7766. In our interim report we have made a suggestion, as you may have observed, that the Scheme should erect at the large sidings sheds for stacking the wheat at the sidings, instead of taking it to the depots. What is your opinion regarding that? — At large sidings it would be a very good proposition. The only places where it would not suit would be a small siding, at which it would be impracticable to keep a gang of men waiting for sufficient wheat to come in. At whatever centre a buyer purchases wheat, if that centre is large enough at which to erect a stack, the buyer erects it. 7767. Are you aware that the Scheme are still erecting large sheds? — That is so, and it means that a miller who is any distance from a depot, if the general manager's proposition is agreed to, will have to pay the cost of removing the wheat from the depot to the mill. The Australian Wheat Board laid down the price which we should pay for the wheat, and that was supposed to be for wheat at the station. Mr. Keys, however, does not propose to uphold that. 7768. The railways have a differential rate on wheat sent in to the depôt, and when shipped from the depot to the port, they pay a through rate only plus 2s. 6d. a ton? — That used to apply here some years ago, but it does not apply to the mills. We use to have an arrangement whereby we could get wheat from the various depots to the mill at a through rate. That still exists in Victoria. 7769. If the arrangement were made to apply to the mills as it applies to the ports, the difficulty would be overcome? — Undoubtedly. If I bring wheat from the country to the coastal areas, there is short railage out again. 7770. By Mr. BROWN: Does that letter of Mr. Keys mean that only the wheat which is at the Kellerberrin mill now will be allotted to you for gristing? — Yes, and when that is finished I can shut down or pay the expense of bringing wheat from wherever it happens to be stacked. 7771. By Mr. HARRISON: There is nearly the whole of last year's wheat still at Kellerberrin? — There are only 30,000 bags there; you will remember that the crop was a very small one, about six bushels. 7772. By Mr. BROWN: How long will it take you to complete gristing the wheat you have now? — Apart from the stack of new wheat, about a month. We can use the new stack and when that is finished we cannot get anymore unless we pay freight from the depot. Perhaps it will take us from two to tree months to get through it. Then we must shut down unless we pay the additional cost. I have learnt on good authority that there is still enough weevily wheat to keep the mills going for five months. This would mean 2½ million bushels. It looks to me as if the Wheat Scheme —though I do not like to say it — were playing a game of bluff. 7772A. Perhaps the Scheme is "playing off" similar to what the millers did? — We never played a game of bluff. 7772B. You stated that you have a very good union? — Yes. 7772C. I have it from papers written by a gentleman thoroughly experienced in milling matters that 7d., plus 7s. 6d., plus 2½ per cent. was never paid for gristing in pre-war days, and that he did not believe in sweating the Pool under present abnormal conditions? — I would like to meet that gentleman. (The witness retired.) WILLIAM JAMES LORD, Chief Traffic Manager, Western Australian Railways, sworn and examined: 7773. By the CHAIRMAN: What the Commission wish to know from you is in regard to the haulage of wheat in bulk; you were on the Commission that was appointed? — Yes, we made certain tests. 7774. As far as the haulage of wheat is concerned? — We tested the open wagons. I think if I remember right it was Ga and Ge which we tested, but not in transit only in shunting. 7775. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: Bumping backwards and forwards? — Yes; we wanted to know what the effect would be. We handled them severely, so as to get the worst treatment the stock would be subject to in bulk handling. We did not make a trial run. It was suggested that we should load two or three or half a dozen wagons and run them an average distance from the centre of the wheat belt, running them down under existing working conditions to ascertain what the result would be in the movement of the wheat, but that never eventuated. 7776. By the CHAIRMAN: Are you of opinion that it will be necessary for the Railway Department to go to any expense, or considerable expense, in the handling of the wheat? — It would do. I have no doubt about it. I suggest on that point you get the Chief Mechanical Engineer, because I understand he has some figures that will enable you to say definitely what it will cost the department in the alteration of the open wagons and stock generally to make them wheat proof. 7777. Did he go into it at the time? — I believe so. 7778. There was a report in South Australia which was quoted here? — I fancy there was an estimate of something like £180,000; I am not too sure, but I believe it was something in the vicinity of that amount for alterations and additional rolling stock that would be required. 7779. We can get that from the Chief Mechanical Engineer? — He has all the particulars in connection with it. 7780. From your knowledge and railway experience you are satisfied that a considerable increased cost would take place to prepare the rolling stock to carry the wheat in bulk? — Most decidedly. 7781. And the tests which you made, though not being carried out in the manner that was decided on, is no guarantee that the trucks will be suitable? — We never had a test in transit, say from a station in the centre of the wheat belt to the seaboard. The test we made was in open wagons; it was a shunting test. I am of opinion myself that it will carry well and quite safely. 7782. Metcalf & Co. are the persons who are considered in this State as to bulk handling? — Yes. 7783. They present a report to the South Australian Government in 1915, which stated that careful and thorough series of experiments were made with open trucks loaded with bulk wheat by the Western Australian bulk handling board has shown that bulk wheat can be loaded in open trucks to within six inches of the top without danger of spilling no matter how violent the shunting. Is that correct? — That is my opinion. That is what we discovered in our tests. To-day we load a wagon to 100 per cent. of its carrying capacity, but under bulk handling there would be a loss of 35 per cent. of the carrying capacity. 7784. And you would have to charge a higher rate? — Not necessarily, for we could then run more mileage. If you decrease the load it means increasing the numbers of trips. 7785. And would mean more money for freight on the general run? — On the general run, perhaps. Under bulk handling the trucks could be loaded much more expeditiously and therefore we could run a greater mileage with the same number of stock. Consequently, it might not be necessary to increase the freight. In the covered stock we would get the full carrying capacity. 7786. Metcalf's manager in South Australia reports "The box of the narrow gauge trucks will have to be rebuilt at an average cost of £40 per truck? — I do not know what class of wagon that would be. 7787. By Mr. BROWN: The carrying capacity of your 10-ton wagon would be reduced by 35 per cent. if