7966. And it is from that you make your local supply?—Yes.

7967. In connection with your mills you could mill, running three shifts, about 2½ million bushels in the year, or 1,000 tons weekly?—You have the figures. I have not made them up.

7968. Have you been milling for the scheme all the year round?—Since the second year of the war.

7969. Were the other millers working on the same basis last year as this year?—Yes. I am the only one selected for this Government grist account.

7970. Are they sending you to wheat different from that which is being sent to other mills?—They certainly did to commence with.

7971 By Mr. HARRISON: You said you sold your bags back again to the Scheme?—I said they took them from me and then they supplied me with new bags.

7972. You said you needed five extra bags. That means 18 bags for your flower, bran, and pollard?—I think we pack a little heavier in South Australia than you do here.

7973. You still use for the flour a large proportion of the bags which come in with the wheat?—We do the best we can. Any bag fit for flour we reserve for flour.

7974. By Mr. BROWN: Where is the flour all stored for the Imperial order?—Under my contract with the Scheme I have given the whole of my storage accommodation, and I could put away on my premises about 20,000 tons of products.

7975. By Mr. HARRISON: Do you make any charge for that storage?—No, we have given them our premises and that is included in the 8d. so to speak.

7976. By Mr. BROWN: are the other millers storing flour mostly on their own premises?—They store up to their capacities and those capacities vary. When the capacities are exhausted the Government provide that storage. We have one store out of Port Adelaide which will hold 12,000 tons and which the Government are now taking over.

7977. Do you find much difficulty arises through the mills and the surroundings becoming infected with weevil?—It is a great trouble to us.

7978.Are the flour stores of yours far from the mill?—They are adjoining; quite handy. The stores are cleaned at every opportunity. We have one store adjoining the wharf. I have to put flour free on board from our lighters. It is all included in the 8d. and it makes the quotation a very fine one.

7979. By Mr. HARRISON: Your conditions are very dissimilar from ours?—Yes. We have our own water frontage. Our wharf store has been cleaned thoroughly lately by the Wheat Scheme. I could not afford to do the cleaning for them. They are now putting in flour again.

7980. By Mr. BROWN: what price are the other millers getting for the Imperial order?—I think it is £10 18s. 6d.

7981. And they are paying 4s. 9d. for the wheat?—Yes.

7982. Do they have to find the bags and everything themselves?—Yes; being weevily they get allowance. It is barter between the officer of the Scheme and the miller as to what the degree of inferiority the wheat is.

7983. It is very open then as to what is the real value of the work performed?—It is, very open. I think the Western Australian method is very much superior to ours from the Scheme's point of view. It is a matter of continual bickering between the buyer and the seller as to the quality of the wheat.

7984. By Mr. HARRISON: Has there been any attempt to give the actual results after certain portion of a particular stack has been milled?—I do not think so.

7985. It is really all speculative buying?—I am gristing for the Government and I am satisfied to look after my own business. The other is their business. The fact that they will not take up my contract is the best evidence that they are doing much better business by their method. It has other advantages that make me feel that I should be satisfied. I am taking no risk of markets and the other man is. That means less mental strain.

7986. By the CHAIRMAN: The other man is all right so long as he is gristing Imperial wheat?—Yes, but he has his bran and pollard and he does not know whether he can get the maximum price and he never knows when he will be landed with stocks of bran and pollard that will show him a considerable loss.

7987. What do you put through to the ton?—My method is always to take 50 bushels of wheat to make a ton of flour. That is the easiest way to calculate and on examination of the wheat I may estimate that I will get a quarter or half a bag excess flour.

7988. Mr. Ockerby in giving evidence before this Commission was asked—You are getting approximately 35s. 6d. plus 2½ per cent. on—and he replied—

That depends on the number of bushels we make to the ton of flour. I lose to a certain extent in comparison with the other mills. Take a 50 bushel yield to the ton. At. 7d. they are making 29s. 2d. for gristing. If we take it at 48 bushels—there is no miller who should take more than 48 bushels to make a ton of flour—we find that the figures are 28s. for gristing, 7s. 6d. allowance for bags, and 2½ per cent. on sales or 6s. commission. That would be a total of 41s. 6d. which is all that I am making out of the Scheme.

7989. In your case you are getting 33s. 4d. On his own basis, as worked out here, if there were 50 bushels he would get another 1s. 2d. ?—But if you take 50 bushels you have more products. You not only get your ton of flour but you get a 50lb. or 100lb. bag of flour in excess.

7990. If Mr. Ockerby put in 50 bushels then instead of the price being 41s. 6d. it would be 42s. 8d.?—You are referring to the Home trade. The statement made by Mr. Ockerby requires qualification, as he gets no commission on either his export trade or on his Allies flour.

7991. He has exported 7,430 tons of 15,000 tons gristed?—He gets no commission on his export. May I say that the rates of freight being charged from this State have been in excess of those in the Eastern States. To-day I am paying £5 per ton from this State to Singapore and one can ship from Melbourne and Sydney on a basis of 4 guineas.

7992. Taking Mr. Ockerby's statement as correct, then in comparison with your 32s. in Adelaide, he must be on a very good wicket?—I do not think any miller here can complain of the conditions under which he has worked during the past year.

7993. The comparison of his trade with yours is very favourable to him?—Yes, but if the premises are wrong, the whole of the deductions go by the board. And the premises are wrong. First of all that export flour does not carry a commission. The millers here are buying from the Scheme wheat at a proclaimed price for export to those places. There is no 2½ per cent. commission. If you eliminate from Mr. Ockerby's figures his export trade and his Allies trade, which carries no commission, then 41s. is a misleading calculation.

7994. Clause 23, paragraph (c) of the agreement provides for a commission of 2½ per cent. on all local sales, and a like commission of 2½ per cent. on sales of flour effected during the currency of this agreement for export to Java, Singapore, etc., so far as the Minister authorises?—I have explained to you that because the market would not stand it I went behind that agreement with the Minister and told him that I did not want that 2½ per cent. commission. I voluntarily released him from any obligation to pay me commission.

7995. But Mr. Ockerby may be claiming it?—I do not know what the Minister may have done with other people. There is in the agreement another clause which says that the whole of the products of the mill shall be shipped for and on behalf of the Minister. To carry that out would mean that we should have to ask from Singapore and Java such a price as to preclude any business at all being done.

7996. But suppose they charge you £10 for flour; if you get 2½ per cent. commission then you are getting it for £9 15s. Some of the millers do not care about the Scheme?—But the Minister cannot return less to the Australian Wheat Board than the proclaimed price. Any bag of flour ground for Java and Singapore must face the market price proclaimed.

7997. But it could be done at a loss to the Scheme?—It we competed for the Java and Singapore trade with our Eastern State merchants we would get such a price that when the Minister had paid me 2½ per cent. plus 7s. 6d., the return to the Scheme would be considerably less than the price he is tied to. It was because of that that I told the Minister I did not propose to bind him to that clase. I voluntarily said that I was prepared to take what I could get from the Java trade. We may have got 6d. per bushel from Java, but I doubt if we got more.

7998. But this is Mr. Ockerby's Statement?—But that 2½ per cent. certainly could not apply to this; it only applies to a small proportion of the grinding of his mills. I think Mr. Ockerby has made an error.

7999. If the Scheme does allow him 2½ per cent. on his export, the Scheme must lose the money?—Exactly.

8000.He said he is getting 2½ per cent. off?—I am satisfied that under these conditions no permission to ship would be given by the Minister. The Minister could cut off my trade with the East. It would not be in the interests of Western Australia nor in the interests of my firm, because I have channels which I have held in those markets for years, and it pays me to nurse the market at cost or at a slight loss rather than lose my channels, because when the war is over we shall want that trade again. Therefore I was anxious to retain it, and I came to that arrangement. I told the Minister I would not asked for the agreed charge, but would take whatever is left in the business. I am