8436. When you say that have you in mind that the State is going to continue to dispose of it ? — I was thinking of the merchant. It is better for the State that the merchant should get a big price rather than a small one, provided the money realised comes to the State, and not that the wheat dealer — who may be only a paid agent receiving a commission on his purchases - should send the money home to some principal in London. The people of the State should get as much as possible of the total amount realised by the wheat in London.

8437. With a bulk handling system in operation here, do you think we would have any difficulty in getting ships to take our wheat to market at a quick rate? — I should not anticipate there would be any difficulty in normal times.

8438. Those ships which have been trading here under the bag system would have to alter their construction in order to carry bulk wheat? - It seems that the great majority of the shipping people have no objection to the bulk handling system. If ships are not trading here under the bag system one of the reasons may be that they are not getting their wheat in bulk. We might get ships to take bulk grain which under present circumstances would not come to us. A certain amount of packet freight is always necessary even with bulk ships.

8439. By Mr. HARRISON: Do you think that the initial cost of instituting bulk handling in Australia under normal conditions would compare favourably with that appertaining in other parts of the world? — I think so much of bulk handing that with anything like the conditions or prices comparable with New South Wales it would be, in my opinion, an advantage both to the State and the farmer that a parcel system up to four or five million bushels capacity should be inaugurated as a beginning of bulk storage. The spread over the full harvest of the capital expenditure is so little compared with our conditions, that a certain amount of it, which can be utilised to the full, will save the difference between the cost (3•2d. to 2•6d), of the storage sheds and whatever is going to be realised on them finally. So far as I can see this only initial bulk storage work is going to be about 15 per cent. more expensive on account of the reinforced concrete due to the increased cost of cement in W.A that would be required. We would be commencing a system which has practically been adopted elsewhere for the main portion of the world's wheat yield, which would foster the expansion of our wheat-growing ; then with increased yield, reduction in the overhead charges on the system will follow.

8440. By the CHAIRMAN : What about steel ? —When it comes to freight, I should think the increased amount on steel —

8441. Only about 100 per cent.? —I admit that it is higher than under normal conditions, but the alternative amount for the contract would not come such a very large sum when we consider that it is only on this four or five million bushels storage, and that it does not take into account the amount saved as against the shed erection which is going on at present. In my opinion, taking the ultimate saving into consideration, and the experience we are getting in doing this portion of the work, that the bulk handling system is warranted. 8642. By Mr. HARRISON : Do you think the abnormal conditions of freight would warrant the abnormal expenditure ? —The abnormal expenditure would only affect a section of the Scheme. The Scheme prior to the war had such overwhelming advantages in its indirect saving to the farmer and the State bulk storage is warranted at present.

8443. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN : Have you had any experience of bulk handling ? —No.

8444. Have you seen the system in operation ? —No.

8445. Your opinion is purely derived from the opinions and experiences of other people ? —Yes, or it is such an opinion as might be formed by anyone who studied the conditions and looks at them from the commercial and financial aspects.

8446. As an engineer, you consider you should be able to arrive at a fair estimate of the benefits of bulk handling ? —Not as an engineer. I am looking at the matter from the point of view of a man with administrative, commercial, engineering, and farming experience. I have confidence in my well considered opinion that it will be found to be warranted.

8447. You will admit that the opinion of the Engineer-in-Chief, who visited Canada and saw the system in operation there, and reported on pre- war conditions, must be taken to be fairly authoritative ? —That depends on his point of view. Because the Engineer-in -Chief reported in a certain direction, if it was not in accordance with my own opinion that would not satisfy me that my opinion was wrong.

8448. The opportunity given to him, together with his technical training, should enable him to put up a report which should be considered to be fairly reliable and to be that of an unbiased individual ? —Yes.

8449. Have you perused that report ? —No.

8450. Then you have not compared his opinion with yours ? —No.

8451. By the CHAIRMAN : That is strange, seeing that he was sent specially from Western Australia to investigate the matter and compare the two schemes ? —It is some time since he reported, and since the report of the advisory board.

8452. Not one member of that board has seen any bulk handling ? —That is not sufficient to make their reports, opinions, or recommendations useless.

8453. I suppose you will appreciate the value of the Engineer-in-Chief 's report when I tell you that he upheld the bulk handling system ?—I understand that he upheld it.

8454. Then his report must be worth something ? —I am not criticising the Engineer-in-Chief 's report at all. If his opinion is not of value to the State, he is not a fit man for his position.

8455. The Engineer-in-Chief showed that there would be a saving, but a very small one ? —Directly to the farmer ?

8456. On the wheat ; not only to the farmer ? —Did he consider the aspect of the saving throughout in the elimination of manual labour ?

8457. Yes ; he took in the whole of that. He furnished appendices showing some small savings in the cost of handling. He now says that those savings would be wiped out by the increased cost of material ? —I understand his estimate was a good deal lower than experience has shown the saving to be in the United States.

8458. Will you admit that the saving depends entirely on the number of times one uses the silo in a year ? —Yes, certainly.

8459. The Engineer-in-Chief says that in Canada the silos are used not only for wheat but for other products. Here we have only the one produce, wheat ? —In the initial stage one never can get the full benefit of a system. As regards the cost of materials, the cost of labour and of bags and of everything else has increased abnormally during war conditions. I made some remarks on the report of the "Primary Producer" relative to the statement of Senator Russell that no objection would be taken to the States controlling the silos if bulk storage silos were erected. You, Mr. Chairman, said that according to the Federal "Hansard" the Prime Minister had expressed a somewhat different view.

8460. The Prime Minister said that he was going to keep control of the silos until they had been paid for ? —But at the same time he made it perfectly clear in which way the Federal Government intended to keep control of the silos ; and that is by the Central Wheat Marketing Committee, and not by the Wheat Storage Commission. The Prime Minister expressly stated that in reply to a question by Mr. Finlayson, who asked whether the States might be permitted to select their own representative, adding " I understand that there will be no objection if they decide to appoint persons other than the Premiers or the Ministers for Agriculture ?" Mr. Hughes replied, " not at all. " That is to say, there would be no objection at all. In " Hansard " No. 3 for 1917, page 401. (The witness retired.) The Commission adjourned.