boards?—There was no connection between the State boards other than that they directed the State boards as to what boats were coming, and as to what boats were to be loaded. Suppose they sold a quantity of wheat to South Africa. They might say that portion of that would be drawn from South Australian and a portion from Western Australia. Certain boats would come to Western Australia, and the board would direct us as to the tonnage to put in, and as to which vessels would take take tonnage.

5. They could not veto what you did?—No. We could not interfere with their business, and there was no overlapping.

6. They directed the charters and sales?—Yes. When we first made the arrangement with them, as a result of the determination to pool the wheat and these three officers were appointed, they were to get one penny per cent. on all sales they effected by way of commission. Subsequent conferences disclosed the fact that they were to get an enormous amount, and that a great deal of the work was being done as between Government and Government. I raised the point as to whether they were going to get commission on the whole of the sales, or whether this was limited to the sales that they actually effected. We found that the Imperial Government had started to negotiate with the Commonwealth Government, and vice versa, with the result that the Prime Minister was really doing the work. The commission was then reduced to three-eighths of a penny per cent. As far as I know that is what they have obtained right through. 7 By the CHAIRMAN: Was there any understanding between the representatives of the buyers and the Wheat Committee that as little as possible should be done to interfere with their business as buying agents?—That was distinctly understood.

8. The agents were under the impression from the outset that while the Commonwealth, through the Committee representing various States, took control of the Scheme they would still remain agents for the Scheme?—Yes. I think the minutes of the conference will disclose the honourable understanding that was arrived at.

9. Were the minutes of the central committee sent to this committee?—Yes.

10. They should be on the file?—Yes. The minutes of the conference at which Ministers were present were sent over. I do not know that they were full minutes, but there would be sufficient to give the Commission a lead in regard to the matter. I am pretty sure I have seen this somewhere on the files. Whether the understanding is there or not I know perfectly well it was arrived at because I was present at the time. The financial side was an all important one. In this matter we received a lot of assistance from Mr. Miller of the Commonwealth Bank. when we developed further, Mr. Williams, representing the associated banks, attended the conference with Mr. Miller, so that we might outline our proposed scheme, particularly the financial side of it, in order that they might go back to their institutions and find out whether they would co-operate. Then, after we had explained the matter to Mr. Miller and to the representatives of the associated banks, they submitted a request that the conference should appoint one person to meet the representatives of the associated banks in a round table discussion on the scheme. It was suggested that I should be appointed. I went down because I had outline the whole scheme to them at the Ministers' conference. I went with Dr. Cameron, who represented the Victorian department, and we met these bankers in conference and discussed the whole scheme, seeking their co-operation. By this time the officers, in conjunction with the Ministers, had prepared a general outline of what the financial obligation would be. We were able to estimate the quantity of wheat that would be available from various States, and the amount that we had agreed to advance. I think the amount was 2s. 6d. per bushel. We were also able to estimate that subsequently we would want so much. By this time information had been obtained as to the price at which we were likely to sell at given times. We were able to give the banks a pretty accurate estimate of the amount of money we would want. After the conference with the banks I returned to the main conference and reported that the banks had been critical but had not offered any captious opposition. I said that the banks seemed to be prepared to co-operate, and that proved to be so. Some time afterwards we got information that the banks were prepared to co-operate with the Commonwealth Bank in financing a scheme. Then the associated banks became associated with the scheme, and the money was made available.

11. In perusing the minutes I observe that at the commencement of the scheme you were not desirous that there should be a State organisation?—I do not remember that.

12. The minutes state that the Minister desired to avoid the creation of a State organisation to deal with the scheme, and that when it came to the appointment of an accountancy staff the Minister had said that he would prefer to appoint an outsider to do the work rather than build up a staff?—There cannot have been much discussion on that. It is not impressed on my mind at all. My intention was to create a temporary department to deal with the wheat during the war. Following that up, I may say that I had become so convinced that the continuation of the Pool would be a glorious thing for the wheat producers of Australia that I had started to talk to all those who I thought were interested in the matter—I frequently discussed the subject with Mr. Harrison—urging that the wheatgrowers should all co-operate to make this a permanent institution.

13. A permanent State institution, or a permanent co-operative institution?—Really to continue the present pooling system, centralised in Melbourne, with the State organisations on practically the same lines as they are working on to-day.

14. Not hand the scheme over entirely to the farming community?—No. As time went on I thought that it was unnecessary for us to maintain the connection of so many middlemen. It is true we had given an undertaking that we would not interfere with them. That was agreed to for the first year. When the second year came along, while I suppose it might be argued that the undertaking still held good, yet I did not feel that I was under an obligation to maintain those middlemen if I could secure more economical results for the farmers by any other means. I had thought out, and almost perfected, a scheme when I left office. That was a scheme for the State handling the whole thing, cutting out all the agents. I proposed to work with the Commissioner for Railways, getting him to supervise the stacking and the general receiving of the wheat into the stacks.

15. By Mr. HARRISON: That would necessitate weighing in bulk on the weighbridges?—No.

16. You would not check every bag?—I had better go into more detail. My proposal was that we, as a State wheat board, would engage and use the local agents as the central agents use the local or country agents to-day. The country agents do all the handling of the wheat, and the sampling and the buying, under direction from the central offices. We had five or six agents, and each of these agents had a local representative, with the result that at a siding like Kellerberrin, for example, there were five or six men receiving wheat, whereas one could do it. That appeared to me an absolute waste of money. Again, if we were to obtain good results we needed to have a uniform sample. We had to deal with different agents working with different sub-agents, and yet they all had to come together with the wheat board. There was playing off of one agent against another. No doubt you will obtain evidence of such a case as this: a man would take to an agent wheat infested with a little bit of barley. The agent would want to dock on that account. Then the farmer would go to another agent, who would accept this wheat infested with barley. That sort of thing caused irritation, and was not economical. I decided then to try and get out a scheme by which the Pool would handle. We would cut out the whole of the central agents—that is, the big firms—and we would take one man at each siding, or two of the work warranted it, and that one man would buy and act for the Pool instead of acting for the wheat buyers. He would play for the Pool exactly the same part as he had been playing for the wheat buyers. His work would be supervised to a certain extent by the Railway staff, more particularly as regards the stacking. Then the Railway staff would see to the transport of the wheat from the sidings at Fremantle. Of course the loading is done by the agents. Immediately the wheat reached