which I had before. I do not think it is possible now for me to obtain that same close connection, because the business has grown so much and because other interests have cropped up which occupy very considerable time. Moreover, there is now a general manager dealing with all details which require executive power. Would it be of interest to the Commission if I gave the figures to which I referred?

803. By the CHAIRMAN: You can put any figures?—I referred to 250,000 bags bought by a miller in Adelaide and to the rates being received by the farmers at country sidings in this and the other States. These figures are confirmed by the report made on my return from Melbourne and which I have here. Extract from report to W.A.State Wheat Marketing Committee— In Victoria the position was somewhat indefinite as the agency agreements had not been signed. It was stated that non-agent millers had received no deductions, and that agent millers would receive a deduction equal to the value of the service rendered, and as covered by the agreement then awaiting signature, stated to be 2d. I was informed that in the case of wheat received ex farmers' waggons, the addition would be one farthing, I have difficulty in believing that the millers only receive one farthing for handling the wheat ex farmers' waggons in view of the fact that as a result of representations made to the minister the proposed allowance for other wheat has been recently increased to 2d. When I come to the figures you will see what the object was that I had difficulty in digging these out. In New South Wales the Minister has agreed to increase the rate, and that agent millers should now have 2d, a bushels for acquiring services. Under their agreement they were supposed to do this work for 1½d., but whilst this rate was admitted to be reasonable, during the harvest season, it was not considered remunerative under present conditions. No deductions were allowed non-agent millers. The position, summarise, shows that the prices in the different States actually received by the farmers in the Pool for wheat for local flour on the Commonwealth declared rate of 4s. 9d. per bushels are as under:— South Australia—4s. 5½d., less railage. Victoria—4s. 7d., less railage New South Wales—4s. 7d., less railage. Western Australia, to agent millers—4s. 7¾d., less railage. To non-agent millers—4s. 7¼d., less railage. You will see the West Australia farmers were receiving under these rates at least three farthings a bushels more than the farmers in the other States— Basis of price of wheat for export flour.—The Secretary of the A.W.B., Mr. Pitt maintained that the selling rates declared for wheat for flour export purposes were the net rates that millers had to pay at the port to the A.W.B., and that no deductions had ever been allowed from this rate. I referred him to our correspondence with the A.W.B. in the early days of the Scheme, when these rates were in dispute and I insisted that the Victoria rate indicated a deduction of 2d. Mr. Baker, Secretary of Victorian Wheat Commissions, later supported Mr. Pitt's attitude. However, I saw a private copy of the proposed Victorian Agency Agreement, and one of its clauses had for its object the payment of "two-pence bonus to millers in order to arrive at the actual amount to be paid to millers from the f.o.b. basis. In spite of this they assured me that the position is that the rates as declared are to have no deduction except railage, and are to be considered as f.o.r. rates port. Messrs. Boehme, Bell, and Darling, members of the Australian Wheat Advisory Committee, admitted that they were supposed to be f.o.b. rates without any deductions, and that they insisted that the millers must pay these amount net. I contended that if that were so the proper way to describe such rates was f.o. rails at port. Mr. Pitt eventually agreed that my contention was correct. That report shows that in Western Australia we were endeavouring to look after our farmers' interests. The Commonwealth Prices Fixing Commission, sitting at that time in Melbourne, found great difficulty in making a comparison between c.i.f., f.o.r., f.o.b., the matter was much confused, and they insisted that my contention that South Australian millers were getting this bonus of 1½d. was not correct. They sent a wire stating that I had made this statement, and asking for information, and the reply showed that it was not so. I asked them to allow me to send a wire, and I did and worded it differently, and they received a reply which showed that my contention was correct.

804. In the early stages of the Scheme were you acting as manager?—No, I was Chairman of the Committee. If there was a manager it was the Minister, who took a very active part in the matter then.

805.But the Minister had other duties. How could he act as manager?—So had I, but the work was being done mainly by the men who in the past had handled the business. I suppose I was the Minister's right hand man.

806. In other words, if it had not been for the other agents, you would not have done anything. You said you were taking no part in it?—I was not handling it in any way. If the other agents had not taken it up the Government would have had to devise a scheme.

807. Do you agree with the statement, if it had been made, that it had not been for the assistance rendered by those qualified to handle the wheat, it would have been impossible almost to go on?—At the time. It would have been extremely difficult indeed. The time was so short to do anything, and the business was so new to everyone.

808. Mr. Johnson, the Minister, was really the manager of the Scheme, you say?—Yes, he was directly interested in it, and taking an active part.

809.You being an officer in his department, were able with him to carry out the scheme without a special manager being appointed?—At that time.

810. If Mr. Johnson stated that it would be impossible for him to proceed without the assistance rendered by the acquiring agents or shippers, would you have agreed with him in that?—It is really wonderful what one can do when faced with a position. That is why i do not like to use the word "impossible." It would have been extremely difficult, and I do not know how it would have been done.

811. The position is this: at the time you started the Scheme the harvest was gathering, was it not?—Yes.

812. And you would have no time?—That is what I say.

813. You would have no time to work up a staff to handle it?—that is so but " impossible" is such a drastic term.

814. Will you say you might have "botched" through a scheme?—Yes, if the agent had dropped out we would have had to do something.

815. The wheat would have been wasted in your opinion if the agents dropped out, because there was not sufficient time to get a proper staff to deal with it?—A good deal of the wheat would have been wasted. May I explain; the possibility of doing the work departmentally was discussed at the time, and I threw all my weight and influence against it, and suggested that the best and efficient means of getting the Pool handled was by those who had done it in the past.

816 That was the decision at the conference first?—That was the decision, but prior to that when we were fighting for terms, for we did not agree to the agents' terms right away, the terms they asked were greater than they received, and the question of doing the work departmentally was discussed, and I agreed at the time that the possibilities of loss by starting a scheme of this kind at short notice were so great that it was inadvisable to attempt it.

817. By MR. HARRISON: As a matter of fact the old agent had the machinery and you had none?—Yes.

818 By the CHAIRMAN: You might have muddled through?—Yes

819 By the actions of the agents in rendering you all the assistance possible?—They did.

820. The experience acquired by years of this business was the means of saving a lot of money to the State?—I am convinced of that.

821. you mentioned just now there was difficulty in regard to shipping. I believe you were present at the first conference?—Yes.

822.Do you remember whether any offer had been made in Western Australia to supply ships to take all