and non-shareholders exactly alike and anyone trading with the company. On the trade the profit is earned, and the people who trade with us are entitled to the profit. After the paying of the seven per cent, which is the ordinary bank rate for overdrafts, the balance is reinvested in debentures. That was the recommendation and at a meeting of shareholders at which there were 300 present that was adopted. We declared a bonus last year of £10,000 and each man gets his share of the £10,000 in accordance with the trade done during the year. 3046. By the CHAIRMAN: Do not some companies, when they fail to earn sufficient in one year to declare a dividend, put their profits to a reserve fund, and in the following year draw a certain amount from the reserve fund; does not that happen occasionally?— Yes. But we cannot do that, because our articles of association definitely force us — we have no option — to distribute in each year the whole of our profits. That is the difference. The only thing for which we can reserve from our profits is when we have issued certain debentures, which are compulsorily payable in cash at death. It is a form of insurance for the wives and children of the farmers. In order to provide security for those women and children, we are allowed to put to a bonus redemption account an actuarial calculation of what will meet those claims at death. Naturally that must be done; otherwise there would be no security. If you own shares in, say, the Great Boulder Mine, and this year the mine shows no profit sufficient to pay a dividend, you simply do not get a dividend. Next year, perhaps, the mine makes a profit which will pay a seven per cent. dividend. But the fact that you got no dividend in the previous year does not entitle you to 14 per cent. in the following year. But a debenture is different. If the profit in one year was not sufficient to pay five per cent., when the company does come to profit, you are entitled to your five per cent. for the year in which it was not paid. 3047. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: You are credited with it whether you get it or not?— Yes. 3048. By Mr. HARRISON: Right up to date all the shareholders have put all their profits back into the company to increase its finance? — Yes; and in cases where we have been much pressed for capital our shareholders have not only put back their profits but have voluntarily paid up uncalled amounts on their shares. What I wish to stress once and for all is this, that the company is absolutely, genuinely, honestly, a co-operative company, and in no sense can it be suggested that the company is otherwise. I satisfied Mr. Ben Jones, of Fremantle, in that regard yesterday; and that, I think, is a pretty good achievement. 3049. By Mr. BROWN: As regards the limitation of your company, it is a limited liability company?— It is limited in accordance with the Companies Act. That is to say, we floated on an authorised capital of £60,000. 3050. In how many shares?— In 60,000 shares of £1 each. 3051. And how many shareholders have you so far? — In the federation of companies, which I shall describe to you later, there are just a little over 5,000. In the Westralian Farmers Ltd.,itself, of individual shareholders there are about 2,200. I will get the figure definitely for you from the original register. 3052. Do you know how much capital is paid up?— The shares are called up to 7s. 6d.; but in some cases those who can afford it have voluntarily paid up their shares. 3053. Did the formation of this company take place through the purchasing of some other company in 1914?— No. When the company was formed, it acquired the goodwill of the Producers' Union. 3054. Was that a limited liability company?— I believe it was purely. But we acquired only the goodwill of members. 3055. Did you pay anything for that?— Yes. We gave certain shares,paid up to a certain amount, free. 3056. Those would go to the shareholders of the Producers Union?— Yes, to those who applied. At that time the Producers' Union was being run in a pretty sick condition and we offered to take over the goodwill, paying to any shareholder of the Producers' Union who applied shares paid paid up to 6s. in the Westralian Farmers, Ltd. 3057. Is there any limitation to the number of shares that a shareholder in the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., can hold?— Absolutely no shareholder can hold more than 250 shares, unless in his earnings from us, he gets bonus shares given to him. The bonus shares can exceed the number of 250. But a shareholder cannot purchase more than 250 shares under any conditions. Further, bonus shares do not carry any excessive voting power in the management of the company. If a man went on earning bonus shares year after year until he held a million of them, he would have only the same voting power as a man who had purchased 250 shares; and that voting power is limited to three votes. No one can step in with his capital and purchase more than 250 shares. But of course, a man can accumulate bonus shares indefinitely. He cannot buy bonus shares, but he can earn as many as his profits will bring. 3058. He is paid a percentage on those bonus shares?— He is paid whatever the company declare; but on no possible occasion can that exceed seven per cent. A man can trade with the company and earn his profit without taking his profit. 3059. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: He gets it in shares, not in cash?— At present only in shares. Cash is too valuable to us at present. I have been on the board of directors ever since the company was formed and founded. Only last November I became managing director. During the previous three years I worked in a purely honorary capacity. 3060. By Mr. BROWN: Are there many individual shareholders holding 250 shares?— A. J. Monger, Prowse Bros., and I think, Mr. McCallum Smith. There may be four or five shareholders holding 250 shares. 3061. Is the Hon. C. F. Baxter a shareholder?— That I cannot say, but a ring on the telephone will find it out for you. I think it is highly probable. 3062. Is the Hon. James Gardiner a shareholder?— Yes. 3063. And the Hon. James Mitchell?— I do not think so. I have never noticed his name on the register. 3064. You stressed the point that there is no political significance in the Westralian Farmers, Ltd. We were told that the Farmers' and Settlers' Association worked in conjunction with the Westralian Farmers, Ltd.?— You were told a thing which I say is absolutely and utterly unprovable and untrue. 3065. It has been said in many places that the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., are using the Country party for political purposes?— I absolutely deny it. However, I will lay my cards on the table. When the Grain Elevators Bill was coming before Parliament, we believed— and we are going to put up a case to show it— that the silos should be maintained by the co-operative organisations, as they are in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and other parts, concerning which we can bring evidence. When we saw the Bill, we found that the idea of Mr. Baxter and others was to have the silos controlled by a Government department. 3066. By the CHAIRMAN: Controlled from Melbourne?— My main point is this: I do not care two tickets who owns the silos. Unfortunately, however, it would take from us the right of marketing our product, we think. Consequently, it was a keen fight with us. I saw Mr. Pilkington, and naturally I went to every member of the Country party and asked— 3067. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: Mr. Pilkington is not a member of the Country Party?— No; but I went to every one who was likely to be able to assist us. Naturally, I concentrated on the members of the Country party. But, excepting in that respect, we have never attempted to use, or in any way suggest it, political influence. 3068. By Mr. BROWN: Will you send us along a list of members of Parliament who are amongst your shareholders?— Yes. I have an idea that Mr. Troy is a shareholder. I know that Mr. Holman is. 3069. By Mr. HARRISON: Is it a fact that certain parties, so that there should be no suggestion of party politics connected with your organisation, severed their connection with the executive of the Farmers and Settlers' Association when becoming associated with your company?— Mr. Hammond, Mr. Harper, Mr. Mather, and I retired from the executive of the Farmers and Set-