country and it is the meanest lie I know"?—£It is the absolute truth. In case there might be a difference of opinion on the point, I must say that the rate of dockage was not fixed by the Westralian Farmers, Ltd. 4391. They asked you to fix the dockage?—They asked us to standardise it, and we had to fix the rates. I told Mr. Taylor at the time that if I were he I would leave it alone and go on the rule-of-thumb basis. That operates unfavourably to some farmers and in favour of others. He preferred to have it set out, and I went into the question and fixed the standardisation of the dockages and gave them a list of the manner in which they were to impose the dockages. 4392. By Hon. R. G. ARDAGH: Then the dockage system was fixed at the request of the Westralian Farmers, Ltd.?—That is so. I do not know that they have ever denied it. The denial which the chairman just read is the first I have heard, and the matter has been brought up a number of times. There was a lot of trouble at the outset because the farmers as a whole blamed the Westralian Farmers for the rates of dockage being imposed. The Westralian Farmers had nothing to do with the rates, but they had all to do with the standardisation of the dockages. In that connection I would refer to question 2913 of the evidence. Mr. Murray was asked, "But with a running bulk sample you take one bushel only from the entire consignment," and in the answer he went on to complain that the Minister fixed the f.a.q. standard at half-pound per bushel above what the Chamber of Commerce fixed later. In that connections I would like to say that when I assessed the f.a.q. standard it was done early in December before the wheat was harvested. The Chamber of Commerce do not strike the standard until some time in February, as a rule after a fair proportion of the wheat has been delivered. So you see in one case we are assuming a standard about a month before the bulk of the wheat is harvested, and in the other case the Chamber of Commerce were working on the actual wheat itself. To get within half a pound of it was a remarkably good estimate. Mr. Murray thinks otherwise. Incidentally I would like to mention, in regard to the striking of this year's standard, that a remarkable incident occurred. The standard was struck at a joint meeting of the Perth and Fremantle Chambers of Commerce, and after the wheat from the various districts had been weighed off, a motion was before the chair to the effect that the standard should be struck at 60½lbs. Mr. Murray, who is not a member of either Chambers' grain committees, and Mr. Monger, who likewise is not a member, made speeches to the members present asking them to strike a lower standard than 60½lbs. A more remarkable thing I never heard. It so happened that I was a member of the grain committee of the Chamber of Commerce, but I went there, not as a member of the Chamber, but as an official of the Government. Had I been there as a member of the chamber, I would have protested against the attitude adopted by outsiders. Gentlemen like Mr. Monger and Mr. Murray should have considered it their duty, as it should be the duty of every adviser to the farmers, to see that as high a standard as possible was struck, so as to encourage the farmers to grow the best possible wheat. Mr. Murray was sorry that it was not struck at a much lower standard so as to be able to say that the Minister was out even further in his estimate. Possibly that was the object he had in his mind at the time. I noticed also in regard to the docking that one of the witnesses gave evidence to the effect that he thought the secretaries of the co-operative companies did not dock the directors' wheat to the fullest extent. So far as the Scheme are officially concerned, we have no knowledge of any such complaints ever having been made. 4393. By the CHAIRMAN: That witness would not tell us where it occurred?—You would assume it occurred somewhere about Dowerin. It was remarkable statement to make, because it is natural to assume from it that the secretary is going to look after the man who is going to keep him his job. Personally, I think the secretary is just as likely to be lenient to every member of his company as he is to the man who happens to be the managing director, or even a director. It was also mentioned by a witness that inferior wheat went to Spencer's Brook. Nothing within 6d. of f.a.q. goes down and is mixed with the good wheat in the depots. Anything with a bigger dock than 6d. is stacked at Fremantle. 4394. Then the farmer gets the advantage of the good quality when it is shipped?—If the dockages that are imposed have not to be paid out by the Scheme, the Pool benefits to that extent. All farmers in the Pool benefit according to the amount of their interest. 4395. If it comes to sending that wheat to America, it will be liable to be reduced in grade considerably?—Certainly. We would, however, sample it at Spencer's Brook and see that we were sending the primest of our wheat so as to get the best possible price form America. The amount of dockage imposed on certificates this year is £10,689. Out of that amount £1,272 has been rebated to farmers. The reason of that rebate is that when we first started to acquire wheat farmers were docked on the standard of 61lbs., but some time later on in the season, in view of the low quality of the wheat of the Eastern States that the farmers were being paid for as f.a.q., the Minister decided that the dockage would only start from 59lbs. As a number of farmers had already delivered their wheat and had been docked the difference between 61lbs. and 59lbs., we had to rebate those farmers. The amount of that rebate was £1,262. The amount of the dockage shown by the Scheme against the Westralian Farmers is £10,846, but that amount is not arrived at by a running bulk sample. It is arrived at by what amounts to an individual bag sample. Of course, off that amount docked to the Westralian Farmers there would have to be a rebate allowed owing to a quantity of wheat having been docked on the 61lbs. basis. Taking the two dockages, that originally imposed by the Westralian Farmers and what we have docked against the Westralian Farmers, it is seen that we have docked £150 more than they have. But there is a quantity of wheat still to come to the depots and this would increase that £150. 4396. When you say "against the Westralian Farmers" you base your dockage on the f.a.q. as well; it is not below the amount they docked previously?—Our dockage against the Westralian Farmers would correspond with their original dockage to the farmers. If it is so happened that we had allowed for a single bag system of dockage, we would have to debit them the amount I have given you. 4397. By. Mr. HARRISON: Would the amount you have docked pay for the cost of that dockage?—No. 4398. The clerical work involved has not been met?—No. But if it were known that we were not instituting any check, the Scheme might lose very heavily through it. 4399. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: It is practically an insurance?—It is absolutely necessary. The question of the method of grading wheat in bulk handling has been mentioned, and one or two witnesses have stated that the wheat should be received along certain lines. To my mind, there is only way on which a certificate of quality should be given at the country elevators, namely by a Government official. 4400. By the CHAIRMAN: The same as in America?—No. In America the wheat is received at elevators and the farmer gets his payment on the quality assessed by the elevator operator. 4401. I thought you said the grade had to be fixed by a Government inspector?—That is at the terminal elevator, not at the country elevator. The man who buys the wheat at the country elevator grades it himself. In Australia, if the wheat is to be received at the country elevator, the farmer should get a certificate bearing a certain grade. Eventually that wheat will go to the terminal elevator, run by the Government, and the Government will have to deliver wheat equal in grade to that stated on the certificate. The Government would run a big risk if they had incompetent officers on the country elevators, and a bigger risk still if they allowed those elevators to be run by private people. Because the farmer getting a certificate at the country elevator will sell that certificate, and the man who buys it will mostly be found to be quite capable of looking after his own interest, and seeing that he gets quality wheat to which he is entitled. 4402. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: This is all assuming that the Government will control the elevators?—I assume they will control them. 4403. By the CHAIRMAN: You think the Government certificate will carry greater weight than would a private one?—I would not put it that way. The grade