ing had been bought, but that no provision had been made for the coupling up machinery. 4489. By Mr. BROWN: Motor power machinery?—Yes, and the connecting gear, elevators, and shafting. 4490. Do you know approximately the cost of the machinery which has now been there for 12 months ?—I the four machines cost £50 each. The coupling-up machinery, costing, I believe, £275, has only recently been received there. There is a man employed by the suppliers of the machinery at present fixing up the Perth mill, who are improving their plant. He expects to be available shortly, and he is going down straight away to Fremantle to rig up the whole show. 4491. Will the cleaning machines there now re-condition to make f.a.q.?—It depends on the class of wheat put through. A large quantity of the wheat down there we can make an f.a.q. sample, provided we watch it carefully. 4492. Approximately what number of bags of wheat have you there ?—About 60,000. A large number of them contain wheat which got wet in transit, and there is a bit of mould about them. A good deal has been said about the large staff employed by the Scheme, and the palatial offices in which they are housed. 4493. The extravagant offices ?—There is nothing extravagant about the offices. 4494. We have found that those offices were taken before your time; but there has never been an attempt made to get cheaper offices ?—There is not the slightest doubt that if you expect your employees to work well, you must house them in fairly comfortable surrounds. You cannot expect good work from them if they are housed in damp cellars, or obtain all their light through a lift shaft. To my mind, there is nothing elaborate about the present offices. 4495. If the Scheme continues to run as in the past, will the staff you now have meet the requirements?—It all depends on what happens to the wheat. 4496. I mean, putting the wheat in depôts?—I think our staff is getting up to the maximum now, if we continue the same handling as in the past. Mr Murray referred to our staff (Question and Answer 2941 read). In fact, we have 40 all told in the office, which number includes about a dozen girls, some of them typewriting and some on the machines. I do not think there is in the whole office one man doing work which is done by the Westralian Farmers, Ltd. Neither Mr. Murray nor Mr. McGibbon seems to have the slightest conception of the work done by the Scheme. Our work practically begins where the work of the acquiring agents leaves off. We have four typists—one of them senior girl, two medium girls, and a junior. 4497. By the CHAIRMAN: You have to check the Westralian Farmers' returns?—No. But we check the certificates which they issue. We find it very necessary to check the certificates on account of the number of errors made by the Westralian Farmers. 4498. Would you not like to be clear of any inspection at all if you were doing work for anybody ?—Absolutely. I would be only too pleased to meet some confiding gentleman who would give me a job and not check me on it. The rest of our staff are doing all sorts of work relative to book-keeping and stocks which is not done by the Westralian Farmers, Ltd. Our accountancy staff comprises seven or eight, on financial statements, work for the Australian Wheat Board, and looking after the books generally. In the Stock Department we have a number of clerks keeping records of the wheat delivered to the mills and shifted from the country stacks. At the principal mills we have our own tally clerks, and at the smaller mills the Westralian Farmers' agents do the tallying. Their records are sent to us, and are all embodied in our books. We have to keep a record of all the work done by the various mills. We know exactly what wheat goes into every mill. We have to keep returns of all the flour, bran, and pollard sent out by each mill. Of course, we get returns from the mill itself in order to do that. Practically none of our work is done by the Westralian Farmers, Ltd. There is no duplication of work at all. 4499. By Mr. BROWN: Do the millers pay promptly?—They run their accounts sales fairly promptly now. They have to pay five per cent. interest if they do not. 4500. Is that part of their agreement this year?—Yes. It was a pretty hard job to get that inserted. Statements have been made that the whole of the work could be done by the Westralian Farmers with their present staff. As a matter of fact, it absolutely could not. 4501. By Mr. HARRISON : Have you noticed question 2942, asked of Mr. Murray ?—Yes. I noticed that question following on question 2941. 4502. (Question and Answer 2942 read)?—If this department were transferred to the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., the latter would have to employ officers to do the work which we are doing now. The effect of that is this: they are not doing work which we are doing. If we did not employ the officers, they would have to employ others. There is certain work which we are doing, for which they would have to take over the men themselves. I am sure they could not get men to come along and take it over. The accountancy work as to the Pools, especially regarding principal and interest, Pool separations, and other like matters, is very intricate; and it is not work that can be picked up in a day or a week or a fortnight. I think even Mr. McGibbon might have a little trouble at arriving at exactly how these things are calculated. 4503. By the CHAIRMAN: Do not you think the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., would be only too pleased to take over the lot of you if they could get you?—I suppose the more work they do, the more profit they are entitled to charge. 4504. By Mr. HARRISON: But they claim that the taking over would be for the good of the Scheme ?—The other day I made up an estimate at which I reckon the Scheme could do the work of issuing certificates for a ten million bushel crop. The estimate was approximately £10,000. On a similar basis to the last year's, we would have to pay the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., £25,000 for that work. Our salaries for officers at the present time are £7,000. If that staff were transferred to the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., and that company paid those men £7,000, they would probably want to charge the farmer up with £14,000—something for their own profit. The Pool represents every farmer equally. If one farmer puts 1,000 bags of wheat into the Pool and the next only 100 bags of wheat, each farmer is treated according to the quantity of wheat they had in the Pool. If our expenses come to £20,000 and that works out at a farthing a bushel, that farthing a bushel on the larger farmer is more than on the smaller farmer. They say they are representing their farmers and their profits. They are not distributed on that basis. Their profits are distributed according to the business the man does with them. The whole question of that is what actuarial calculation they make to see what profit arises from any particular line of business. You may be giving your insurance to the Westralian Farmers, and they may so work that it is debited to the insurance portion of the business. They say that their profits are distributed after the shareholder dies. If the Wheat Scheme is doing work our charges are debited up and the balance distributed at the end of the Pool or in dividends during the course of the Pool. No dividend is kept until a man dies and then handed to his widow. 4505. By the CHAIRMAN : You said you got out a scheme by which you can do for £10.000 what you are paying £25,000 to the Westralian Farmers for doing ?—Not quite. I worked out a statement what it would cost us to handle 10.000,000 bushels and, applying the rates which we paid this year, we would pay the Westralian Farmers £25,000. 4506. For handling that ?—Yes. 4507. Would you mind, on Tuesday morning, bringing that scheme before the Commission ?—I will. A similar scale was worked up 12 months ago for Mr. Sibbald. I worked this up independent of that. I had not seen the file, and in comparing the records of the one compiled by Mr. Child and myself on the basis of 10.000,000 bushels with that compiled for Mr. Sibbald the difference is only £150 on the two estimates.

(The witness retired.)

The Commission adjourned.