4551. Have you seen the file on which advice is given to ease off growing wheat in Australia?—I think Mr. Hagelthorn said that. 4552. According to the I.A.B. minutes, Ministers were advised to go back to their States and counsel farmers to ease off growing wheat and grow stock?—I do not recollect that. I think that would be an ill-advised action. At a time like this the question is as to what is best from the Empire's point of view, and not as to what would pay best. There are one or two other points in Mr. McGibbon's and Mr. Murray's evidence with which I wanted to deal. Mr. McGibbon stated that the latest appointments to the Advisory Board, those of Mr. Paynter and Mr. Cotton, were made without reference to the Farmers and Settlers' Association. Mr. McGibbon has spent a lot of energy in trying to get the Scheme away from political control, and then he suggests that a political organisation should nominate appointees to the board. Mr. McGibbon further stated that the appointment does not carry the whole satisfaction of growers. The word "whole" covers a great deal. I do not suppose anybody's appointment ever carried the whole approval of all the people concerned. Mr. Cotton's appointment has been approved by the Farmers and Settlers' Association. That, of course, was subsequent to the appointment; the association were not consulted beforehand. Mr. McGibbon also went into a lengthy statement regarding a perpetual Pool. In my opinion such a thing is an impossibility, and could never be carried out. Mr. McGibbon talks about a consignment of wheat sent home on which the banks advanced a certain sum of money, and which, when it got home, was sold for more than it was worth here. I could give cases to just the opposite effect. Anyone sending wheat on consignment will soon get into the insolvency court. There is only one thing in dealing with wheat, and that is to sell it as soon as one can after buying it. As to a perpetual Pool, there is only one means by which it can be started, and that would be to give the Pool a charter to compel every farmer to deliver to the Pool; otherwise, competition coming along and making farmers a straight out offer, would mean that they would refuse to put their wheat into the Pool, for what they would ultimately get. I do not think, of course, that any Government would be likely to grant such a charter. Such a Pool would need to control not only the export but also the local sales of wheat. I think a little more experience of the business would make Mr. McGibbon realise that his idea is somewhat utopian. 4553. We have evidence advocating that the farmers should be compelled to send their wheat to one Pool?—Well, that would be the only way in which one could get the farmers to deliver. A number of years ago Dalgety & Co. here used to work on those lines. They used to take the wheat from the farmers and send it home on consignment, and when the account sales came out Dalgety's would square up with the farmers. In one season, I believe, Dalgety's had to ask the farmers to remit a little of the money paid to them by way of advance. As soon as the other firms, such as Darling and Bell, came here to buy wheat, the farmers preferred to sell to Darling and Bell rather than give their wheat to Dalgety's on consignment; and this latter course is practically that which Mr. McGibbon Advocates. Mr. McGibbon further stated that the Commonwealth steamers are being paid the highest rate of freight paid anywhere. In fact, that is entirely wrong. The Commonwealth steamers are getting probably the lowest rate of freight paid anywhere. They have been making a present of many thousands of pounds each year to the Australian farmer by not charging the rate of freight they could perhaps get by trading elsewhere. 4554. Do you mean by trading outside Australian waters?—Outside of Australian waters, or perhaps by trading in other commodities than wheat. It is much more profitable to carry home a cargo of wool than one of wheat. 4555. Are the Commonwealth steamers getting less than the other ships are getting?—Yes. Last year we sent a number of cargoes away from here, and I think the rate paid to the Commonwealth boats was 120s., whereas Blue Book rate was about 190s. Latterly, I think, the Commonwealth steamers have been charging 150s. 4556. While the private companies are being paid 190s.?—One hundred and ninety shillings, if not more. 4557. What are the Scheme paying this State for the "Kangaroo" shipments?—I believe the "Kangaroo's" last charter for taking home wheat from Australia was on the same basis as the Commonwealth charter party's. I cannot say offhand what the rate was. 4558. Have you any arrangements for the next cargo she is taking home?—She has been fixed to take a cargo of flour to Suez, chartered by the State Steamship Service to Padbury. 4559. By Mr. HARRISON: Are not the Commonwealth ships now taking the Imperial Government order?—All the Commonwealth boats are taking the Imperial order. 4560. Might not the lower freights be on that account?—No. I wish to correct that. The Commonwealth boats are not taking the Imperial order. The wheat taken by the Commonwealth boats is sold in England on account of the Australian Wheat Scheme. 4561. Then Imperial or war matters are not influencing the freights to a lower scale?—As far as we are concerned, the Imperial order is sold f.o.b. The Imperial Government have to provide their own freight. 4562. By the CHAIRMAN: Are the State Government paid the same rate as the Commonwealth?—They have been for past charters. They are being paid more for this recent charter to Suez. 4563. The "Kangaroo" has done only two trips?—I think she has done more than two of wheat. When I was with Dreyfus & Co., that firm loaded her twice, and I think the Westralian Farmers have loaded her once. 4564. Is the order Padbury's are supplying to Suez a private order?—Yes; Padbury buys the wheat from the Scheme. 4565. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: Is Padbury not under a gristing agreement?—Yes; but for outside sales we let millers purchase the wheat, so that we shall not have to pay them 2½ per cent. commission on the sale. 4566. By Mr. HARRISON: What price is Padbury paying the Scheme for the wheat to supply the Suez flour order?—Seven shillings per bushel, and I think the rate of freight to Suez is £13 per ton. 4567. Will the Scheme fix the price of wheat before knowing where the wheat is going to?—No. The destination and the rate of freight must be disclosed. 4568. There would be no danger of a complication with the millers?—You mean between the two. There is a certain amount of difficulty in working it out—the millers and private export orders. They are making varying classes of flour, some millers will take a greater percentage of wheat than others. 4569. Could the Wheat Scheme have sold the flour similarly to Padbury?—I suppose, by employing brokers. 4570. You think it is a better proposition to sell the wheat?—The Australian Wheat Board get the price they want for their wheat and they are satisfied. In Question 2880 Mr. Murray was asked, " What you have to do for 1⅝. costs in Victoria 3⅞d." and Mr. Murray replied "Yes." 4571. Stacking, weighing, issuing certificates and commission is 1⅝d. and ½d. for roofing; our total remuneration is 1⅜d. and their total remuneration is 1⅜d. plus 1d. What you have to do costs Victoria 1⅞d.?—According to my way of calculating, what the Westralian Farmers do for 1⅝d. costs 1⅞d. in Victoria. 4572. Mr. Murray went up afterwards; he puts on one halfpenny. If you refer to Question 2896 you will see, "The position now is, as far as I can gather, with the exception of dunnage, you are doing for 2¼d. what they are charging 3⅞d. for in Victoria," and he replied, "Quite so." That includes the roof?—They are not roofing in the country in Victoria like we are doing here; they are roofing at the depots in Victoria. They are getting a flat rate of 2⅜d. and that includes the commission to country agents, the issuing of certificates, the stacking of the wheat at depots, the laying of dunnage at depots, and fixing and roofing and caretaking to the end of October. In this State allowing for 1d. to sub-agents, they get 1⅝d. merely for receiving wheat in the country, issuing certificates; they do not lay the dunnage at the depots; they have