4853. You have already told the Chairman that no notice was taken of spare bins for the purpose of transferring any weevily wheat from one bin to another?—So far as I am aware.

4854. Are the Canadian silos used for any other purpose than wheat during the year?—Yes, they handle all sorts of grain.

4855. So that the silo does not depend on the wheat crop?—Not altogether.

4856. It is helped by other crops?—Yes.

4857. We should have to depend on wheat only?—Yes, in Canada the other products are wheat, oats, barley, maize and peas. They are all dealt with.

4858. If we had in the country a 20,000 bushel capacity elevator to follow the Canadian system?—You would not have so many grades here.

4859. You would have a number?—Two or three grades.

4860. And consequently if you have a 20,000 bushel elevator it would, of necessity, be divided into a number of bins, say six?—Perhaps not so many as six in this country, there would probably be four bins.

4861. That would mean 5,000 bushel capacity each?—Yes.

4862. In the estimate prepared of concrete as against wood, was that fact taken into consideration, or was it simply a question of concrete on a large scale as already suggested?—The last estimate for those silos had nothing to do with bulk handling. It was purely an estimate for silos at per bushel.

4863. To be used as part of the bulk handling scheme?—Yes.

4864. And the agreement with Metcalf & Co. was entered into so that plans prepared by them should be for a bulk handling scheme and so that part could be used for bulk storage?—Yes.

4865. So that the design would be for bulk-handling bins ultimately?— It should be.

4866. Have you ever gone into the difference in cost between a concrete elevator and a wooden elevator erected say, today, making that provision for a number of bins instead of one huge bin?—No.

4867. I understand from your previous evidence an estimate was gone out per bushel which according to the report and evidence was not satisfactory for a bulk handling scheme, because it would have to be divided up. That has not been gone into at all?—No.

4868. By Mr. BROWN: Could your department without outside help at all design these silos and construct them?—The department is competent to design them and carry out the work, but it has not the experience or specialised knowledge in this class of work.

4869. I am not asking about bulk handling, but storage. Suppose you were asked to design silos of 50,000 bushel capacity, to store 6,000,000 bushels of wheat in various cases, your department could do all that?—Yes.

4870. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: And as far as wooden elevators are concerned, in Canada there would be no difficulty at all. The difficult would be more with reinforced concrete?—Yes.

4871. Wooden elevators would be quite simple?—We could design wooden elevators, but perhaps not so economically as those specialised in that class of work.

4872. The wooden bins you could without the machinery?—Yes.

4873. As easily as anybody else?—Yes.

4874. By Mr. HARRISON: I notice a 25,000 bushel capacity bin made of timber?—Elevator.

4875. An elevator made of timber in Canada for the storage of 25,000 bushels, would cost £2,500?—No, not in Canada, £1,500 complete.

4876. In Western Australia?—I said £2,000 here. A 25,000-bushel elevator built in timber in Western Australia would cost £2,000. In Canada it was from £1,000 to £1,300 without cleaning machinery, and £1,100 to £1,500 with.

4877. What is the cause of the difference; principally hard wood against soft wood?—The prices of materials are higher here, and labour is slightly higher than in Canada. Also the machinery would cost more.

4878. The timber would be more difficult to work?—Yes.

4879. And heavier in railage?—Yes, more freight.

4880. You have taken all these things into consideration?—Yes, those estimates were worked out on comparative prices of material and labour in Australia and Canada.

4881. You further said that bulk handling to the farmer in your estimation would be from 1d. to 1½d. per bushel better under normal conditions?—Yes, 1.16d.

4882. How do you come to that conclusion? What are the things that you take into consideration?—From the following comparison between the cost of shipping wheat to foreign markets in bags and in bulk:—Farm assumed at 200 miles distant from shipping port. In bags: f.a.q. sample, cost of bag on farm 8d.; sewing, filling, twine, etc., 1.25d.; should it be necessary to stack the bags, 1d. should be added to this item; handling from cart to truck .5d. (should it be necessary to stack the bags, 1d. would have to be added to this item.) Railage, siding to terminal elevator 11.82d. truck to ship direct at 9d. a ton, 0.75d., stevedoring at 1s. 10½. a ton, 1.88d.; sea freight Fremantle to London at 37s. a ton, 3s.; insurance, commission etc., at 1 per cent. on 15s. 1.80d. per bag, 5s. 2d.; credit weight of bag sold as wheat 1.25d.; credit bag sold in London 2d.; total 3.25d. Net cost per bag 4s. 10.75., per bushel 1s. 7.58d. In bulk (clean graded wheat), country elevator charges, including weighing and discharging, .50d; sea freight Fremantle to London at 37s. ton, 12d.; trimming .10d.; inspection .03d.; insurance, commission, etc., 1 per cent. on 5s., .60d. Net cost per bushel 18.42d.; total 1s. 6.42d. Difference in favour of bulk handling— total cost to foreign market in bags 1s. 7.58d. Total cost to foreign market in bulk 1s. 6.42d.; theoretical direct saving in transport charges 1.16d., to which there is to be added the indirect saving in lost grain dockage returned to producer, increased price accruing from better sample of grain and possible reduced sea freight owing to quicker dispatch of ships and increase of weight that can be carried by them.

4883. You come to all those estimates after travelling through Canada and seeing the work done there?—Yes.

4884. It might be argued that the abnormal conditions today, the increased cost of construction of the storage an the machinery for doing the bulk handling would be too high; that is your opinion?—Yes, in my opinion. Whether it is too high or not, in my opinion, we would not be able at present to procure all the machinery and requisites for bulk handling on a large scale.

4885. Have you taken into consideration the abnormal conditions of the shipping, the number of tons extra boating bags to the port and then on rails and then again to the port of discharge of the wheat? On a 15,000,000 bushel crop you would have 5,000 tons of bags coming from Calcutta; there would be the transit of those rails, the transit back by rail and then the transit to the port of discharge from the port of Fremantle or elsewhere. All that abnormal freightage?—The statement of costs I made just now would not apply at the present date.

4886. Do not the abnormal conditions with regard to the sale of our wheat under the present system warrant an abnormal outlay?—The cost of the shipping is the main thing throughout the world. Wheat being such heavy bulk, the freight tells on every ton shipped. If you could reduce that tonnage by not using bags, would not that pay interest and sinking fund on a large capital outlay?—It would on some outlay; it would depend on the amount of shipping and the freight charges. If the wheat were cleaned there would also be dockage saved you would get a higher price.

4887. Did any of these estimates come into your calculation in regard to the saving you spoke of under normal conditions?—That is the ordinary saving; you have to add the indirect saving in the loss of grain by bag handling, which you do not lose in bulk handling, also the dockage saved and the increased price which would follow from the better sample of wheat. All those things are in favour of bulk handling.

4888. What was the Canadian estimate of percentage taken out in the cleaning of their grain?—I think it ran from two to five per cent.

4889. In your opinion, freight is likely to be abnormal for some years to come. Would it not pay the