think I convinced them that quite the reverse was the fact. Suppose I deliver 8,000 bags of wheat at Doodlakine. This has to be weighed bag by bag and then put into the stack. It takes weeks; but I suppose I had the 8,000 bags in silos in the silos on the farm, when I fill a bin I inform the agent at Doodlakine that it is ready for testing, he comes out and inside of two hours he has completed the test. See the saving there would be. But without hearing a man these officials do not seem to grasp the fact, and decide against it. They talked to me about the insurance, but I ask them what insurance was on my wheat in their hands? The bigger farmers could provide these silos on their farms and the smaller ones could co-operate and do it. The Wheat Scheme ought to be very glad to have it done. All the minor difficulties could easily be got over by the passing of an Act of Parliament. Mr. Keys referred generally to the question of experience. After all, in the handling we have had since the inception of the Pool, one firm had about as much experience as another. Since the commencement of the Pool I have travelled all over the state and have seen the Westralian Farmers stack everywhere. I say they are above reasonable criticism. You have seen their stacks at Fremantle. All previous experience was on the basis of short period storage.

4953.By the CHAIRMAN: They did not stack at Fremantle?—However, they had to sheet the stacks and take care of them. I would say that their stacks right through the country when I saw them were all in most praise-worthy condition. The Westralian Farmers have handled the wheat just as well as any other firm could have done. I recognise the right of the Government to full supervision, but I say it can be done far more economically than at present. Competent men on decent salaries could be appointed to make inspections at various points and to check the quantity and quality. Why go through with a huge staff much minor detail could be checked by an audit of the books and the methods of the one concern? I think that is a place where economy could be effected. I trust that whatever is done will not burst up that creditable organisation of co-operation which the farmer has established for his own protection and benefit.

4954. You dealt a good deal with Mr. Keys' remark as to Dreyfus & Co being an elephant and the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., comparatively a fly. You are aware that Mr. Keys in making the observation was speaking from a financial point of view?—Yes; and that might be his idea of it. But to the Western Australian farmer Western Australian wheat is the elephant, and there is no fly about it. Mr. Keys might not be too cautious in handling the fly, because he wishes to consider the elephant.

4955. You are aware that Mr. Keys followed up that remark by saying that Dreyfus & Co. wanted to get the wheat, and that to them it made no difference Whether they purchased it from the Westralian Farmers, Ltd, or from the individual farmer?—Yes. I think, however, that Messrs. Dreyfus would sooner but the wheat from the individual farmers as in the past. Mr. Dreyfus is aware of the possibly that when buying wheat after the war he may have to deal with an Australian Pool. I really think that people like Mr. Dreyfus rather fear such an organisation, and that that is why they say the Pool will not work. The best man in the world should be obtained to manage the Australian Pool, and to sell Australia's wheat to England or France or elsewhere after the Australian people's requirements have been met.

4956. You said that Mr. Keys' appointment was not calculated to be in the interests of the farmer and of the country. Do you mean that because a man has been in private employment, and because certain Government action taken deprives him of that private employment, he should not continue in his line of business by accepting employment from the party then controlling the business?—I prefaced my remarks by stating that I desired to pass no personal reflection on Mr. Keys any more than any other man, because I believe Mr. Keys is constituted with a fair balance. But I do say that Mr. Keys, as representative of Dreyfus & Co., was in competition with the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., prior to taking his present position, and that he sat in conjunction with other agents who would not sit with the Westralian farmers,Ltd., and who made up their prices last year without consulting the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., though on previous occasions they had conferred with that body. I don not say Mr. Keys was the instigator of that move any more than the rest, but he sat with them. Then the Government, on account of the quotation made, decided to appoint the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., sole agents for receiving wheat. Mr. Sibbald goes, and then this gentleman from a rival firm is asked to take charge of the Scheme and the Westralian Framers, Ltd., which he set out hoping to defeat in competition. Moreover, he has admitted before this Commission that after he has finished with the impossible he intends to return to his old love.

4957. Let me put a personal illustration, though I do not intend it to apply to you personally. Suppose the Government launched out in State insurance, thus taking away the largest part of your business as an insurance manager, and suppose the Government decided that Mr. Prowse was the man to manage the state insurance scheme, do you think Mr. Prowse would be justified in accepting the position and endeavouring to carry out the work for the Government as conscientiously as for a private company?—I hardly think the two positions are analogous, because in the matter of insurance it is a question distinctly of issuing a policy to the insured. The insured knows what he gets, and there is the closing up of the matter. If I were placed in such a position, as manager I would naturally endeavour to run the business effectually, but my company would hardly lend me for such a purpose, Nor is it likely the Government would borrow me.

4958. But Mr. Prowse as manager would be asked by the Government for advice?—Yes; and if I accepted such a position I should be open to the natural criticism that Prowse had given such and such advice in order to wreck the Government scheme, that is, if I were loaned to it.

4959. My reason for putting that illustration is that there is a possibility of the accusations against Mr. Keys in this matter having been made unjustly?—Exactly. That is admitted. But the fact is that the appointment has caused discontent, which is not unreasonable.

4960. By Hon. J. F. ALLEN: Where else would the Government go for an experienced manager but to those previously engaged in the business—I think we could have got a perfectly impartial man without that—A thoroughly good business man. If Mr. Keys went off the stage to-morrow, and if all the other managers for previous agents went off, we would manage to get some man in Western Australia with business capacity to see that everything was done right, a man who would not upset the people by withdrawing his word two or three times, and a man who would exercise foresight. I am satisfied there is want of sympathy in the management.

4961. By the CHAIRMAN: Do you think a firm of the standing of Dreyfus & Co. would have for their manager in Western Australia a man without business ability?—No. I consider Mr. Keys has business ability for their purposes.

4962. If he had it for their purposes, he also has it for the Scheme's purposes?—Perhaps he has, but it has not been shown very clearly.

4963. Are you not looking at the matter from a biassed point of view?—Exactly.

4964. Fortunately, we are not?—I am looking at it from the standpoint of a grower of wheat. I hope the Commission are biassed no more and no less than I am. Really I am biassed in favour of Western Australia.

4965. You have said,"I think it is quite impossible for the Government to handle our wheat." Why?—I qualified at the time. I said that Government would be more expensive, to judge from experiences made in other directions. We want a practical sort of thing for the farmer; we do not want red tape. An executive board would have helped very considerably in the past, and had such a board have been in existence much of this friction very probably would not have occurred. But there are Ministerial changes and different ideas come in. Mr Mitchell, for example, ignored the Board. Possibily Mr. Mitchell was capable of running the Scheme without the Board; and the next Minister ran on the same lines. Perhaps the most sensible was the first Minister, who sat constatly with the Board, and in that way made the Board executive.

4966. You admit is a Board that is controlling the Wheat Scheme to-day?—The Lord knows what is controlling it if you want my opinion.

4967. If there was a Board appointed with a certain amount of executive power, do you think they would be able to handle the wheat?—A Board with executive