TUESDAY, 13th AUGUST, 1918. (At Perth.)

Present: Hon. W. C. Angwin, M.L.A. (Chairman). Hon. J. F. Allen, M.L.C. | S. M. Brown, Esq., M.L.A. Hon. R. G. Ardagh, M.L.C.

SINCLAIR JAMES McGIBBON, recalled and further examined:

5370. By the CHAIRMAN: You wish to make a further statement?—Since I was here I have perused the evidence given to Mr. F. C. Keys, Manager of the Wheat Pool. I wish to correct his evidence so far as it refers to that given by me. Mr. Keys in answer to question 4296 takes me to task for having said that the Commonwealth steamers are being paid the highest rate of freight. He says that the Commonwealth steamers are getting probably the lowest rate of freight paid anywhere, and that they have been making a present of many thousands of pounds per annum to the Australian farmers by charging a lesser freight than they could get elsewhere. Mr. Keys went on to say that the rate paid to the Commonwealth boats was 120s. whereas the Blue Book rate was 190s., and that latterly the Commonwealth steamers had been charging 150s. I can refute that statement by a letter except that it is confidential information given by the Australian Wheat Board to the various Farmers and Settlers' Associations, on the understanding that the contents were to be treated as private and confidential. Therefore, I propose not to read out the list of freights, but to submit the schedule to you confidentially, so that you may satisfy yourselves that my statement is correct. (Document handed in.)

5371. Do you think such information should be treated as confidential?—As a wheat grower I should say certainly not; I have every right to know. Every man in the shipping office knows the rates. Another point, if the British Government were paying 190s. freight they get out of that 105s. by way of taxation, the net result being 85s. per ton to the shipping company. If you would like particulars of that I could turn them up for you.

5372. The statement produced to you by the Australian Wheat Board shows that in every instance the Commonwealth steamers did a higher or as high a rate of freight than do other ships?—Yes, they get the maximum rate paid to any steamer.

5373. And in a number of instances other steamers are paid considerably lower?—Yes. On the subject of gristing charges Mr. keys referred to my connection with a flour mill. The position in regard to the Perth mill was this: I was appointed attorney for Mr. De Lisle in April, 1907, when I took over the running of the mill. Mr. Morrison, the present manager, applied to me on the 2nd December, 1907, for the position of manager. I appointed him and I continued as attorney for Mr. De Lisle until the beginning of November, 1909, when Mr. De Lisle died. Mr. Morrison had had no previous experience in a mill, but called himself a flour, grain, produce, insurance and mercantile agent of Queen-street, Perth. Mr. Morrison's qualifications as a manager which were considered by me, included several years' experience in a Victorian insurance company. He had never had anything to do with the running of a mill. I ran this mill six months before Mr. Morrison saw the inside of it as manager. During the first month's transactions after the 30th April, 1907, the mill showed a profit which I would be pleased to work six months for, and during the six months showed a profit that I would be pleased to have each year for the rest of my life. I was going through the files last night and found that I attended meetings of the West Australian Flour Millers' Association on many occasions and that I was present on the 12th August, 1908, nearly 12 months after Mr. Morrison was appointed manager. There are on the file also numbers of letter and telegrams with regards to supplies. I claim to have an intimate knowledge of mills, and that I also know how much previous experience is necessary in order to run a mill. If a man has commercial knowledge, in my opinion, if the working of a mill is explained to him, he can run it satisfactorily. This is borne out by the result of Mr. Morrison's appointment, for he has been with the mill for 11 years and made a success of it. During the first six months I ran the mill I dealt with hundreds of tons of wormy flour, and wheat in a much worse condition than the Commission showed me in a bag. All that was cleared up before Mr. Morrison was appointed. Mr. Keys says that his staff is on a weekly wage, and that with that staff he undertakes to do £10,000 worth of business more than he is doing at the present time. If that is a fact it must mean that his staff requires considerable reduction at present. I do not know of any staff which can extend itself to do £10,000 worth of work in addition to what it is now doing. He says he has only 40 employees on his staff. Mr. Keys states that I mentioned a staff of 60. The only information I gave to Commission was that it had been reported to our association that the cost of the clerical staff at the Wheat Scheme was £14,000 a year. I have never known the number of the staff, neither have I been interested in it.

5374. I think you are under a misapprehension in regard to this point. At our request Mr. Keys handed in a statement, which it was unwise to make public, because at that time quotations were being asked for. Mr. Keys pointed out that, in receiving the wheat at the depots, the same staff that he has now would be able to do all the work that is necessary. As a matter of fact, he had made arrangements to give to them certain checks instead of appointing a full staff to do the work?—The impression given to me by the evidence was that Mr. Keys told the Commission that his staff was prepared, without any extra expense, to do an additional £10,000 worth of work, for which the Westralian Farmers are being paid £25,000.

5375. He did not say that. The Department called for quotations, and it would have been unfair to make that evidence public in the circumstances?—That is a matter which does not concern the association. It seems peculiar that Mr. Keys, as a civil servant, even without the knowledge of his Minister, should submit a price for doing certain services which are being asked of outside people. if he under-estimates the services, who is to pay the difference, the Government of the farmer? If the Government are responsible, then Mr. Keys is taking upon himself a greater responsibility than the Minister would take. It may be part and parcel of a scheme which is being worked. It seems absurd for a man to make a proposition to this Commission, or to anyone else, to do work when he has no power to do so. Question 4274 deals with a long statement made by Mr. Keys in regard to the signing of certificates. He makes a definite statement here. I put in two plain forms for assignments, Which I mentioned before. (Document handed in.) These two documents have to be completed before and assignment is allowed. The first document has to be signed by the holder of the certificate, assigned to the storekeeper—

In consideration of your forbearing t press me for immediate payments of the moneys now due by me.

I would point out that 99 per cent. of the farmers' liabilities in this State, when overdue, carry interest. A