Act passed in 1916 and you realise in doing so we have had to pursue the minutes of the Australian Wheat Board. We find that most of the minutes are marked confidential, although I do not see why it was necessary to do so. The Commission are of opinion that you may be able to give them some information of what takes place in connection with the Wheat Board which might be interest to the Commission and assist them in any recommendations they may bring forward. Do you prefer to make a statement to us?—Oh, yes! The great difficulty we are suffering under is that of infrequent meeting. All the members of the Board except myself are exceedingly busy men. They have their State offices and businesses to look after and naturally it is difficult for them, particularly those from Western Australia, to go all the way to Melbourne to attend the meetings. Western Australia appointed Mr. Gregory, I understand, when the Minister cannot be present, and he has attended the meetings since I have been on the Board. It is difficult to arrange a time to suit the different Ministers, therefore, meetings are held very infrequently. You know how large the wheat business is. Even your State business is a pretty big one and when you consider the whole wheat business of Australia you see it is almost impossible to keep in touch with it. At the time at our disposal we cannot keep in touch with the London office and know the full value of wheat in the markets of the world, consequently the chief part of the business is left to an advisory committee with a manager. The manager, before I joined, consulted a small body who acted in the absence of the whole. That was a considerable help and the Minister for Victoria was one and Senator Russell was another. I think they did the chief part of the business. The farmers asked that I should be placed on that executive, but it was then abolished. Even now they take advice from Senator Russell and any members of the board who may be in Melbourne, are consulted as well. (When I was there in I was consulted about sales or anything else.) They consulted me with Senator Russell. It is not quite as bad a custom as you would think. You see the Minister are so busy. When I am in Melbourne and Senator Russell is there (even Senator Russell is an exceedingly busy man), and a business like this requires the whole of a man's time. The wheat business has always been a difficult one. That is proved by the fact that in a majority of cases, and I can tell you from 40 years experience, most of the firms that have gone into the wheat business have gone what they call "bung" because they did not look after their business properly. They speculated and gambled in wheat, and they were not in a position to compete with others who had more knowledge and, therefore, in the end they failed. There are only a few of the old firms left. I have been in business for 20 years, first as manager of the Farmers' Co-operative and also as director of the co-operative. I was eight years manager when in its infancy, when we had no capital and I worked it up from nothing to what it is now, a strong company with a capital of over £100,000.

5634. By Hon J. F. ALLEN: What State is that in?—South Australia. Then I was director of the company. My principle in managing has always been the same, sell as you buy, do not speculate. One year after I left, in fact I went to England to get information for them—and in that year, unfortunately, they speculated in wheat and lost £30,000, by what I call gambling. The great trouble in the wheat business is gambling, not only gambling here but in England and America .I do not know if you have ever read a book written especially on the American system of gambling. I cannot tell you much about it, but I can tell you that London cargoes are bought and sold which are never seen and never expected to be seen, and sometimes they are placed on the market when other cargoes are on the market and, therefore, are knocked out altogether. The fact of the matter is that if we could so arrange it and not have that gamble, we might regulate the price of wheat with the greatest of ease, always paying the farmer a fair price for his wheat. Let me give you an instance, and I know this , for I was six years on the Baltic, and in those six years we never need or ought to have seen wheat above 4s. or under 4s. a bushel here, if we had regulated it. We might have brought it up a little, but not much, because America would have knocked us out. At the same time by regulation we could have regulated the wheat so that the farmer could get a fair price for his wheat and also regulated it so that the person consuming the wheat had enough without trouble. The trouble in Australia was that the merchants shipped the bulk of the wheat at one time, with the result that the great bulk of it arrived in England one cargo following closely on another, and so the price was knocked down. It would pay the farmers of Australia better to keep a lot of their wheat and feed stock on it, rather than allow the price to be knocked out of the market. The millers in England like Australian wheat to mix with other wheats, but once they have received enough to keep up their standard of flour there is no more call for Australian wheat for the time being. It has been said that the co-operative societies cannot deal with wheat. The South Australian Farmers' co-operative society started without capital and worked up to their present position. With the keenest competition against us, we worked the business, and when the time arrived we learnt to ship. We employed different brokers to charter for us. We would offer to charter ships in England, but we gave our broker a limit. He would go on to the Baltic and offer a price to a shipowner. The shipowner, of course, wanted the highest price, and he would immediately go to one of those large firms ask if they would give him any more. Seeing that they wanted to knock out the Farmers' Union, they invariably took the ships from us. Now, when I went to England I got power from my directors to spring a bit, if I wanted, or to say to the shipowner, "You must close down right now." In that way we got over our difficulty. The same difficulty was experienced when the Federal Government started chartering. The Pool has been of wonderful benefit to Australia. At the same time it is a great pity that it did not get as manager someone who understood shipping and the whole business. I was told that the Federal Government offered over a million tons of shipping through the year at 75s., and that that offer was turned down. When I came out to Australia I told my directors of that. Unfortunately, one was a member of Parliament and so he took it to Mr. Goode, who is a member of the board, and thus it got out publicly and I had to deal of ill feeling. There is a very uncomfortable feeling between the board and myself because I insist upon giving out to the farmers any information I may have. The other members of the board give me "beans" now and then. They never did listen to me, but now the position worse than ever. I also found that we paid £113,000 for commission to the committee in London for selling our wheat; the bulk of which was sold by the Government here. One of the member of the board told the farmers that it was the lowest price ever paid in commission. As a matter of fact it was the highest price, although a low rate, for cargoes are now worth 80 odd shillings per quarter, whereas they used to be 35s. per quarter, so it is seen how high is the commission. I believe that, by the end of their term, it will be £200,000. In the two first pools we paid 3¼d. per bushel for handling. This year we pay 1d. less. That 1d. less means over a million of money paid to the agents in Australia over and above what they are paid now. The co-operative societies have done very well in the business and every one of them has plenty of money now, so it will be seen how much the big firm have made, for in the beginning they had very much more business than the co-operative societies. Those firms have had a sort of promise that at the end of the war they shall have their businesses back again. I do not know who had the right to make such a promise. It is very unfair to the co-operative societies. When the Government had to take over the business the six selling brokers in London got together and agreed to do the best they could for the Government during the war. Unfortunately, three of those firms were selected in Australia and the other three were knocked out. Consequently, three gentlemen in tall hats came on to the Baltic and said they only were there to deal with Australian wheat. That naturally cause a great deal of dissatisfaction. One of those three firms did all