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punishment than hanging ; but I do not know if the criminal classes are sufficiently educated up to the point where the dread of the gallows could be entirely removed. 611A. By Mr. Mayhew.—The assassination of the Empress of Austria was a cold blooded murder, but yet the assassin was only imprisoned for life ?—Yes ; as to that, I think the proper place for anarchists is the lunatic asylum. 612. GAOL GOVERNOR.—By Mr.Stirling : Would you place a man in charge of a gaol who had risen from the ranks?—I think not. There is a book by Morrison, formerly Governor of the Wandsworth gaol. According to Morrison's idea, the governor of a gaol ought to be a sort of archangel; but I think you might get an approximation to Morrison's ideal amongst the professional classes. It should, for choice, I think, be a man with some knowledge both of medicine and of law—a sort of medicine jurist. He should be firm, humane, and just. 613. GAOL COMMISSIONERS.—By the Chairman: would you favour the appointment of a Board of Gaol Commissioners in place of the present system of Visiting Justices?—Yes; and the Board should have transferred to it some of the powers now exercised by the Sheriff. The Commissioners should be independent of ministerial control. Their efforts should be primarily directed to the protection of the prisoners. The Sheriff and the Warders would see to the enforcement of the law. There should be one lawyer, one medical man, and one layman of good standing on the Board. No power at present protects the prisoners at all. I would give the board power to dismiss subordinate officials, but not to appoint them. 614. DAILY CHURCH SERVICE.—By Mr. Stirling : Might not a daily school hour take, with advantage, the place of the daily church service?—I think so. The mere reading of ritual under the circumstances is a farce. It is not an act of worship on the part of the prisoners, although it may be on the part of chaplain. The more you make the prison system educational, the greater the chance of gradually causing the gaol to empty itself. 615. CLASSIFICATION.—By the Chairman: Then as to classification?—This is most important. There is no classification at present, and no regular penal code upon which to base the classification. I think, if practicable, the character of the offence rather than the length of the sentence should rule in classification; but, for anything of the kind, the success must entirely depend upon the character of the man who administers the system rather than upon the system itself. I am not altogether a believer in the separate system, because isolation is bad for any man. I would develop the social faculties and not develop anti-social tendencies. 616. That difficulty has been got over in American prisons by means of visitors, has it not?—Yes; I believe so. 617. Prisoners would not be elevated socially by association with each other?—Well, any system would be better than the present; but upon that point you will, no doubt, be able to get a great deal of information from the reports of similar Commissions to your own in other countries. 618. COMPETITION OF PRISON LABOUR.—By Mr. Mayhew: Do you think such work as the manufacture of mats would involve or raise any question as to competition with free labour?—No; I have often seen that bogey raised; but the quantity of work done in the prison would be too slight to afford ground for apprehension on that score. 620. By Mr. Craig.—We import now a number of articles which could be made in the prisons?—No doubt. 621. ABORIGINALS.—By the Chairman: Have you considered whether it is necessary to have an aboriginal prison? What is your view?—I should think it would be better to turn one of the islands off the coast into a sort of aboriginal reserve. 622. By Mr. Craig.—But you know, perhaps, that in the far north there are tribes where, if only one or two men are removed, the rest give no trouble at all to the settlers. All the difference in the world is made by presence of one or two criminals?—That class of criminal, very likely, would in some cases be called patriot. They are the man with the energy and ability to sway and dominate their fellows. Under happier circumstances for them, and in the absence of the whites, the aboriginals who now go to Rottnest might turn out to be rulers of their own and surrounding tribes, and capable of laying the foundation of a good tribal government. 623. DIPSOMANIACS.—Do you think that habitual drunkards ought to go to Fremantle Gaol?—No; a dipsomaniac should be treated as a maniac. Every effort should be made to strengthen his will. 624. ROGUES AND VAGABONDS.—By Mr. Stirling: Has it ever struck you as being an absurdity to class rogues and vagabonds on the same category. It s not the fact that, in Australia at any rate, the rogues are not vagabonds at all?—No doubt the terms are contradictory. Our laws are derived from old English enactments directed against the Gipsies, and from the Statutes of William and Mary, which prevented a farm labourer from leaving his parish without the leave of the squire. 625. PRECINCTS OF THE GAOL—What do you consider to be the proper precincts of the gaol?—I suppose they would be the four walls of the gaol; but you must carry the proper discipline of the gaol outside the walls, supposing it is necessary to take the prisoners beyond the walls for any purpose. 626. By the Chairman.—Even to the extent of shooting an escaping prisoner?—I think so. 627. But does the statute provide for that?—I cannot say. I should think it does. I do not, however, think that the prisoners should be taken outside the gaol in Fremantle at all. The prison is not fit for panel works at all. The services of the men should be utilised on some large panel farm. There they would not come into contact with the outside world. In Arizona they have a gang of convicts employed on irrigation works, and without any warder in charge. The whole gang is responsible for the conduct of each of its members. In the same way in Russia a gang of 100 convicts elects its own "starosta", or a mayor, and the "starosta" thus elected is responsible for the conduct of the party. 628. THE LASH AND IRONS.—By Mr. Stirling: Do you know of any part of the world where the lash and irons are abolished?—They are abolished in some of the American States, and in some of the cantons of Switzerland, I think. 629. HANDCUFFS BEFORE CONVICTION.—Do you think it is right prisoners awaiting trial should be marched through the streets handcuffed?—Certainly not, but I have seen it done. 630. PENNILESS PRISONERS.—By Mr. Mayhew: How would you provide for the necessities of prisoners who, on discharge, are destitute of funds?—I would give all prisoners an opportunity of earning a trifle for doing work. Some of them are skilled men who, as miners or artizans, would be capable of doing good work. (The witness withdrew. The Commission adjourned.) THURSDAY, DECEMBER 8TH, 1898. [AT PERTH.] Present : DR. ADAM JAMESON, CHAIRMAN. Mr. H. Stirling, Mr. E. W. Mayhew, Mr. F. Craig, Mr. J. F. Gallop, and the Secretary. Mr. Arthur Foster Smith, examined. 631. POLICE COURT PROCEDURE.—By the Chairman:—Have you any statement to make to the Commission in regard to Police Court procedure?—Yes. I was until lately, Clerk of Petty Sessions at Perth, and clerk of Quarter Sessions at Cue. I wish to call attention to the case of a woman charged before Mr. Roe on July 18th, this year. I produce the charge sheet. She was cautioned and discharged. At least that was the order made, but on July 22nd she was still in custody. I made a note in shorthand on the charge sheet, released on July 22nd. I was present when Sub-Inspector Hogan applied to alter the order to seven days. I put marks on the sheet to prevent this being done, and it was not done. I mention the case as showing a lack of proper supervision. On the charge sheet for July 25th, Lee Tung, charge No. 2483, was remanded for eight days. On the 28th of the same month he was brought up and the charge against him was struck out, but under the same number of 2483 he was charged with a second offence, namely, assisting in the management of a gaming house. The first charge was being unlawfully in a gaming house. The first charge was punishable with a maximum fine of £10, and the second with a maximum fine of £100. He appealed, and the conviction was quashed on a technicality. That, however, does not get over the fact that Lee Tung was remanded on one charge, and, without notice, brought up on another, and a more serious one. A charge may be lowered from a graver to a less serious matter, but it is obviously unfair to a prisoner that he should be called upon suddenly to face a new and graver charge, when he has prepared himself on remand with the evidence to deal with a lesser charge. Then, if you take the charge sheets, you will find that the magistrate who orally sentences a prisoner to seven days, only takes upon himself to suppose that that necessarily carries hard labour, and hard labour is accordingly added on the warrant of commitment, although it formed no part of the oral sentence. Again, prisoners may be fined 5s., or seven days. Under 14 Vict., No. 5, Sec. 16, you will see that no fine may be recovered from any person in the Police Court, unless he has had notice of the minute, the judgement, or order. He must neglect to pay, on receiving the notice, before he becomes liable to imprisonment. The authorities must enforce the power of obtaining the fine, before they enforce the seven days. In England they put it the other way. They say, "seven days or 5s.," which makes a vast difference. Things are done very irregularly here. In the case of one, Abdul Mahomet, there was a search warrant taken out against him; that search warrant was never signed, but the constable went into the house, searched it, and arrested the man. [The witness withdrew. The Commission adjourned.]
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