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SATURDAY, DECEMBER 10TH,1898 [AT FREMANTLE GAOL] Present: DR. ADAM JAMESON, Chairman. Mr. E. W. Mayhew, Mr. H. Stirling, and the Secretary. No. 10454, further examined. 632. PERSONAL.—As the result of a recommendation of the Commission my sentence has been reduced by five years. I would like, however, to point out if I am guilty, I deserve the whole sentence. As a fact, I am entirely innocent, and my innocence is known to detectives Eggleston (who arrested me), Condon, and Connell. They are all in Perth. Policeman Walters, at the Waterside, knows it too. So does prisoner Cox, who is in the cook-house here. I was convicted before, and it was that which gave me the sentence. A nephew of Inspector Back did the robbery, not me. No. 2840, examined. 633. CASE OF PRISONER 10454.—I am the prisoner referred to as being in the cook-house by the previous witness. Whilst I was in the Perth lockup, detective Eggleston came to me and told me 10454 was innocent. His words were "We know he is innocent, and I believe he will get out soon." Mr. William Andrew George, Superintendent of the Fremantle Gaol, examined. 634. DIET.—By the Chairman: The diet appears to have been especially bad in the last three months of 1897, as shown by the evidence (vide question 3)?—There was no general complaint to me upon the point. There were, no doubt, individual cases of complaint, but nothing general. At the present time there is a complaint about the flour. It appears to be too new, and I have ordered it to be sent back. I see all the food when it is cooked, and if there is anything wrong with the cooking I have it put right. As to the raw material, it is inspected by the storekeeper, and the potatoes are picked over by the prisoners. The bad potatoes are thrown on one side, weighed and returned to the contractor. They come to us just as they are from the ship. The quality of all food supplied under contract has to be in accordance with the contract signed between the contractor and the Government Storekeeper. The latter keeps the samples on which the tenders are called ; they do not come to us/ When the contractor has been unable to procure good potatoes, we bought them outside through the Government Storekeeper. 635. What about the variety of the food (vide question 49)?—For the longer sentence men I think the food is deficient in variety. For the short sentence men it is a matter of no importance. After a time, no doubt, the men get tired of the food, which is very monotonous in its character. The present dietary scale was introduced in 1880. 636. Then, as to the class of the meat, the evidence is that it is nearly all flanks and flaps (vide questions 237,230)?—There are, undoubtedly, not so many hind-quarters of beef as four-quarters, but still there is a fair proportion. The fact is that all the meat has to be cut up into five ounce pieces, as nearly as possible, so as to give each prisoner his proper allowance, so that, in the result, when the meat is cooked and cut up, it makes little difference whether the meat off the hind-quarters or not. 637. That being so, the meat supplied might, for all practical purposes, be just as well fore-quarters, or what they call flaps and flanks, and if that were stated in the contract there would be a considerable saving, because the butcher would would keep the best joints for sale to the public?—I think so. As to the general quality of the meat it is very fair—far better than it used to be in the former years. 638. PORRIDGE AT MIDDAY.—The porridge is now supplied with the midday meal (Vide question 99). Would it not be better to serve it at breakfast?—I have not considered that. I know that in other places it is served at breakfast time, but there they do not get tea. You could not very well give tea and porridge, I should think. 639. COOKING.—By Mr. Mayhew: What about the mode of cooking. There is some complaint that the method of cooking itself is lacking in variety?—Well, you see if you have to give each man his proper ration in a form in which he can see that he is getting his full allowance, you can only do that in one or two ways. For instance, if you were to give the men Irish stew, a lot of men would grumble that they were not getting their full weight of meat. Our present appliances, at any rate, would not permit of any change in the direction indicated. 640. Is proper cleanliness observed in the cooking (vide question 184?)?—Yes; that is a point which the Commission can observe for themselves at any time. Of course it may happen that through carelessness on the part of the men in the cook-house there might be an occasional ground of complaint, but in the general way great care is exercised as far as I have seen. The porridge is allowed to stand after cooking (vide question 579). It is very thin when made, but thickens afterwards. The gruel is taken out early to get the coppers ready for the meat. The tea is made after the dinner is cooked. It is allowed to stand, but it is always hot when served up. 641. REFUSE.—What is done with bones?—They are taken out by the nightsoil man. 642. Could not a price be got for them?—I do not know. They are taken away in small quantities. The same thing may be said of the other refuse and waste food, which cannot be allowed to stand about the prison. It is taken by a son of one of the warders. Years ago, I know the prison used to get a shilling a day for it. 643. REMISSIONS.—Are the magistrates told that if a complaint is brought against a man who is merely cautioned, the fact that the prisoner is reported still causes a loss of eight days' remission to the prisoner?—They know that, but they say that they have nothing to do with the remission. 644. Has it ever happened that a magistrate has dismissed a man without a loss of remission?—Yes, I think that happened in one case. I may say that I never personally interfere with remissions unless the case comes before a magistrate. All losses of remissions are the result of the men being guilty of offences which require their being brought before the magistrate. (Vide questions 154, 217, 267.) 645. MARK SYSTEM.—Do you approve of the mark system?—No; I think the mark system places the prisoners too much at the mercy of the warders. It is better that each prisoner should know what remission he is getting by a fixed scale. 646. LENGTH OF SENTENCES.—Under the new scale in operation this year, a ten years' sentence is equivalent to a life sentence given last year, because less liberal remission is allowed?—Yes. 647. And other sentences are practically all increased in proportion, in most cases being about doubled, so far as the actual term of imprisonment goes?—Yes. 648. INDUSTRIES.—Do you recommend the carrying on of industries in the gaol?—Yes; mat making, carpentering, boot making, tailoring, etc., could all be done in the gaol under a system of separate treatment; but the cells are not big enough for the men to stay in all day. 649. We have it in evidence (question 19) that the present associated system only makes the men worse?—I quite agree with that. I think it does. The separate system would be far preferable, and the prisoners should be masked, as they are in places where the separate system is rigidly enforced. If the Government provided the proper plant necessary for the carrying on of industries, we could carry on those industries as well here as they do anywhere else, and provision could be made for the instruction in the trades of those who were not skilled in the particular handicrafts required. 650. GAOL ACCOMMODATION.—What is the extent of the gaol accommodation?—490 cells altogether; and out of these there are 25 double cells. I cannot say whether there would be any difficulty in knocking two cells into one. It might possibly weaken the structure. I should think, however, it could be done in the case of alternate cells. 651.DARK CELLS.—Do you think that the dark cell treatment is unnecessarily severe?—No; as a maximum only seven days in a dark in the dark cells can be given, and then, after the fourth day, one hour is allowed in a light cell each day. I have never known a case of a man being injured by the dark cells.As to the clothing of which some of the prisoners complain, I think the blanket and rug are sufficient. They go there for punishment. If a man is kept in his cell some days before he goes before the magistrate, the latter takes that into account when giving his sentence. 652. A member of the Commission inspected dark cell No. 7, and found the bucket had no top to it?—If a man uses the bucket, the contents can usually be removed immediately, but it would be better no doubt to have air-tight lids to the buckets. 653. A sentence of three days bread and water here carries with it dark cells as a matter of course?—Yes. 654. Do you not think that the magistrate should specifically order the dark cells if he means that punishment to be inflicted?—It is an understood thing that dark cells followed the sentence of three days of bread and water. 655. But surely there should be no understanding or misunderstanding about such a serious matter?—Well, that is the practice here. 656. By Mr. Stirling.—Do you consider that the dark cells are necessary in the interests of the prison discipline?—I do. A man's conduct is always taken into consideration before the sentence of three days bread and water is given. 657. IRONS.—What is your opinion about the use of irons?—In special cases the use of irons is beneficial, but I think six months in irons is long enough for any man. There should be a separate class—an irons class—for prisoners whose conduct renders the use of irons desirable. They should not mix with the other prisoners to be made heroes of, as is at present the case. 658. DOCTOR'S INSTRUCTIONS.—By the Chairman: Are the doctor's orders regularly carried out in every case?—Yes ; in all cases. 659. SPECIALLY MARKED CLOTHING.—What are the arrangements in regard to the reservation of especially marked clothing for prisoners?—Every man doing 12 months and upwards gets his clothing registered. 660. CONDEMNED CLOTHING.—What is the practice as to condemned clothing?—The clothing of all prisoners sentenced for 12 months and upwards is confiscated, not condemned. It goes to the female gaol to be washed. It is then given away to destitute prisoners, who are leaving the gaol. It is not sold. 661. RULES AND REGULATIONS.—What are the rules and regulations which guide you?— I simply carry out the rules and regulations which which existed before my time, as far as it is practicable. There are no rules defining my duties as gaoler, but there are rules in regards to my position as Superintendent of
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