to them. The managers get 11s. a day, and in this country you do not get much of a man for this wage. These men are left to themselves on these farms, and very naturally do not assume very much authority, and this does not lead to the successful running of the farms. I have represented that these men should be stiffened up. At Narrogin lately things have been altered. We have a first class man there at £336 a year and a field man at £4 a week. It is difficult to run these farms from Perth. On the other hand, it must be remembered that there is a lot of Terrace farming, and that these gentlemen want to avail themselves of Mr Sutton's advice.

8818. The experts are independent to all intents and purposes?- They have the independent handling of the farms and are independent as regards the plotting out of their movements. The ministers who have been in charge of the department at various times have always been in touch with them. They are not in the same building unfortunately, but Ministers come across two or three times a week and we, in turn, visit them. Mr Bath, Mr Johnson, and Mr Lefroy, know what the experts are doing. All that the Commissioners have done is set out in a diary which shows their operations from month to month.

8819. What reports do the experts publish?- Their reports are found in the annual report. We favour the resurrection of the Agricultural Journal and think now that it would pay it's way. That is one of the things we wish to move in, but at the present time we are tied up for money. The cost to the State of the department four years ago was £42,500. Last year it was £35,800. Parliament actually voted £47,000 and we earned £12,000.

8820. What are the principle directions in which the money was spent?- The farms accounted for a fair amount of that total, and I am sorry to say they all showed a loss. These losses were, Chapman, £500 ; Merredin, £1,000; Narrogin, £1,300; Brunswick; Denmark, £824. On agriculture generally there was spent £17,000 and the wheat belt got £5,000.

8821. What would you call "agriculture generally"?- The different functions of the department, such as salaries, travelling allowance, cartage, etc. In Mr Sutton's particular section the expenditure for the nine months just passed was £4,206. The salaries accounted for £931 and temporary assistance £187. The wages at the state farms amounted to- Merredin, £450; Narrogin, £675; and Chapman, £525. On top of that there is incidental expenses amounting to £201. In addition there is £1,237 which went towards buying fertiliser and wheat bags.

8822. What means are adopted for acquiring the latest ideas from other countries?- The commissioners are constantly receiving magazines and other literature, and they never ask for a book, within reason, that they cannot get. They keep themselves reasonably up to date, seeing that they are busy men. They do not get much assistance. When Mr Sutton is in the country there is no one to take his place, whereas in the Eastern States there are five men engaged.

8823. What system of fertiliser inspection is arranged to protect the growers?- Mr Sutton has a man who goes round and inspects fertilisers and takes samples. Occasionally he strikes a man who is selling fertiliser which is not as described and that man is prosecuted.

8824. When Mr Sutton took up the work of the Industries and Wheat Boards he did that on his own initiative?- I think he suggested it to the Minister. The first time he took up the work was in 1912, but then it was only a case of distributing a bit of seed. He was going again next year when the debacle came and in 1914 the war broke out. Of course if we had suggested that someone should be engaged to assist him, the Treasury would have screamed out. We want money, but we must realise the times that we are going through. On one occasion I suggested that we should close down the Chapman and Merredin farms and let Mr Sutton stick to Narrogin and the State. In 1914 he was out of town on only 22 occasions. In the year before that he was in the field lecturing and on the farms between 80 90 times. Mr Moody, the fruit commissioner, is in a better position. He has a good offsider in the person of Mr Wickens.

8825. What connection have the Rabbit Department with the Department of Agriculture?- It is one of the branches. Mr Crawford is the head of that branch. He is given a pretty free hand in regard to the disposition of his men.

8826. In November last he wrote an urgent minute dealing with the rapid increase of the rabbit pest. At that time there seemed to be a lack of coordination between the government departments and the Department of Agriculture did not appear to realise what a serious menace the rabbits were to the settlers. The prime reason for our action was not the destruction of the rabbits, so much as the protection of the Government security?- Mr Crawford realises all that and the files show it. As a matter of fact he moved some of his men from the No. 1 fence to the No. 2 fence. The Minister recognised that the settlers were having a pretty rough time and it was not desired to harass them, and Mr Crawford had to leave in abeyance the undoubted powers he possesses under the act. Mr Templeton was going to show us what could be done in the way of the destruction of rabbits with apples and strychnine, and he got 111 in no time, but of course the apples were fresh. The Minister said he would stand to us in the experiments which might be conducted, and today we stand to lose £800 over these experiments. Mr Templeton had carte blanche to buy apples and strychnine and he got five tons of apples and started by putting them in kerosene tins. Of course they fermented and were quite useless and did not kill a single rabbit. Phosphorised pollard is what we use at the present time. The apples and strychnine were tried on six tame rabbits in the department and only one died. The others thrived on the treatment.

8827. What work has been undertaken by the department this year in connection with the destruction of rabbits?- I think you had better call Mr Crawford who will be better able to explain what is being done.

8828. The proposal to drop the No 1 fence did not come to anything?- We have withdrawn some men from it, but we are still maintaining it. We are concentrating those men on the No. 2 fence where the rabbits are really thicker. The heartbreaking part of the whole thing is that men leave the fence gates open and some of them do this deliberately. Mr Hedges caught one man recently and he was prosecuted and fined £5. Fencing the dams is Mr Crawford's idea of dealing with the pest, but of course we cannot get wire netting now.

(The witness retired.)

The Commission adjourned.