7528. Has Mr. Sibbald had experience in milling?—He was in the Northam mills for some time, but prior to that was in a timber yard. He has had some years' experience in mill management.

7529. He stated that the pre-war price for milling was 15s. a ton actual cost?—When I went to the Eastern States two years ago with Mr. Johnson to interview the Australian Wheat Board, Mr. Sibbald was the most cursed man in Australia. He had put certain figures before the Federal Food Prices Commission, and on these figures the price of flour, bran, and pollard was fixed for the whole of Australia. He afterwards found that he had made a serious mistake, but Mr. Catts, the Chairman of the Commission, would not allow him to make any alteration in his figures.

7530. He estimated that the total cost for gristing should be £1 per ton?—I do not know how he arrived at these figures. I could easily work out the cost showing the wages, power, and so forth, and bring it out at 35s. In the figures I have submitted you will see the money I have actually paid out, the figures having been audited and found correct. One cannot fake one's profit and loss accounts when one has an auditor over one. Until the figures were worked out I did not know what the cost was myself.

7531. The offer they made you at the start was 30s., the same as it is now?—They first offered 6d. per bushel, and then advanced to 6½d. Then we said we wanted 7d. We did not know what the wheat would be like. As a matter of fact we preferred to be without it at all, but we recognised that the Scheme were in trouble. We did not fancy the idea of putting weevily wheat into our clean mills, for it will probably take years to get it out again. It is almost impossible to eliminate the weevil from the wheat. Mr. Sibbald recommended that the 7d. should be accepted, and that was confirmed by the Minister.

7532. The 7d. was accepted after Mr. Sibbald had left?—I think he left it on record that 7d. would have to be paid.

7533. He said he could not recommend the offer. His offer first was for 30s. based on 50 bushels per ton, 25s. of this representing gristing and 5s. bags. There was a big difference between that and £2 1s. 6d.?—That price is only obtained on local flour, and most of the bags that we got in from the Scheme during the winter were in very bad order. They were torn and in a disgraceful state. The wheat was coming in almost in bulk. I do not care about putting good flour into disreputable bags. That meant paying for new bags. Bags have never been less than 10d. this year, and it takes 13 bags to put up a ton of flour. It is all very well in normal times when wheat is delivered in January or February, and immediately milled, for the bags then are almost as good as new. When wheat has been in a stack for one or two years, it is almost impossible to estimate the true value of the bags.

7534. The millers agreed to this price through their association?—Yes.

7535. Had they been a labour body it would have been stated that they had gone on strike?—I suppose so.

7536. Once they fixed the price, they adhered to it?—It is a good union.

7537. By Mr. BROWN: As to the meeting held on the 11th October, to which reference is made in this correspondence dealing with the incoming crop, were there any negotiations or correspondence preceding that meeting?—No. Simply a request from the association to know what the Scheme were going to do; and that request has been made periodically, every time we have met.

7538. Have the association definitely, in writing, decided against this request of the Scheme?—Yes. Or perhaps I am not quite correct in saying that. You have all the correspondence which has passed. It is fairly recent, and we have had no meeting since.

7539. At your last meeting was it decided to turn the Scheme's offer down?—Yes, absolutely.

7540. By all those present?—Yes.

7541. By the CHAIRMAN: What is the opinion of the millers generally regarding the gristing; do they think that the mill which turns out the largest percentage of flour should have a lower rate than the mill which turns out the least flour?—I do not think they would consent to that.

7542. There is one mill which turns out 5lbs. of flour less per bushel than the others?—Yes. Those percentages were of a highly confidential nature before they came before the Scheme. No miller was supposed to know what another miller was doing. Quite recently some millers stated that it was impossible to make a ton of flour from less than 48 bushels, although I contend that no miller should require more.

7543. Apparently, the Scheme's offer means that the less flour a man makes, the more he is to be paid?—That is the way the Scheme do things.

7544. By Mr. BROWN: Regarding Mr. Keys' last letter to the association, saying "It is assumed that individual millers prefer to revert to the alternative arrangement, namely, that they purchase the wheat from the Scheme for their private business as may be required. Does that mean that the Scheme are not going to have the mills running full capacity for grinding wheat?—It may result in that. If a mill has not sufficient export business and local business to keep running full time that mill will simply run half-time as was done before.

7545. What are the local requirements of flour?—It is hard to say, since the war. In pre-war times the requirements were about 30,000 tons per annum. They are probably down to 26,000 or 27,000 tons. The Scheme could supply that information better than I could.

7546. By Mr. HARRISON: In the earlier portion of your statement you said that certain figures were given, as the total amount acquired, to Mr. Johnson as Minister by Mr. Sibbald?—Yes; 150,000 bags.

7547. And you have stated that you did not agree with those figures?—That is so.

7548. Did you deny them at the time?—I did not. Through my not denying at the time, a lot of this trouble has arisen. Had the minister asked us the question whether we agreed with that figure, we would promptly have said no, we did not. But Mr. Sibbald was at that time not very popular with the rest of the millers. He volunteered this information, and we did not take the trouble to contradict him. We did not then look upon the quantity as anything serious. We did not then see that it mattered. We thought we were simply going to put it in, and take it out again. We thought it was simply to be put in, in order that Mr. Johnson might tell the Prime Minister that everything was in the Pool.

7549. You said, that you yourself did not know the quantity, owing to the number of agents you had operating in the country?—Yes. I had agents from Nangeenan, in the Eastern district, to Tambellup in the Great Southern district.

7550. How long after that particular date was it before you got the full returns of the purchases made by your agents?—It was at least a month before we got everything compiled. We wired them to send in the contracts at once, and the contracts began to dribble in. But every contract was in order, and all the contracts were audited by the then wheat inspector, now the Scheme's accountant, Mr. Child.

7551. You were operating before this period as a purchaser in the country districts?—Yes. I have been a wheat shipper for years.

7552. Was it not usual for your acquiring agents, under the old conditions, to wire back all purchases the same day?—Not unless advised to do so. In fact, a good many of them did wire. The matter is now nearly three years ago; but I should say it is more than likely that I told my agents, when giving instructions for cessation of purchases, to wire their purchases; and it is quite probable that they did do so. All those telegrams could be made available.

7553. It was the usual practice to wire the purchases?—Yes, generally speaking.

7554. You have said that Mr. Sutton promised something to the effect that the Kellerberrin wheat would be allowed for your Kellerberrin mill, and that that promise was not kept?—Yes. He promised that nobody should come in between my firm and the Kellerberrin wheat.

7555. Did Mr. Sutton give you anything in writing as to that promise?—No. Last season all the wheat produced by the Kellerberrin district was stacked in the mill yard, along the mill siding.

7556. Do you consider that the Kellerberrin district is growing a fair quantity of Comeback wheat?—No, unfortunately not. My firm have always been prepared to pay a high premium for Comeback wheat.