5856. Are the Australian Farmers, Ltd., not in the same position to-day as they were then ?—I think that to-day there seems to be some more interference with the Scheme than was the case last year.

5857. You looked to them for your money last year, and you look to them again this year, and for any payments you rely entirely on the Westralian Farmers?—Yes. It seems to me that the Westralian Farmers must always have receipts for the wheat. Suppose I trucked wheat to Fremantle, they must have an acknowledgment that that wheat has been received at depôts. Our contract is only to receive and truck. This year there has been a delay.

5857A. There has only been one occasion on which the Scheme has delayed payments to the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., and that was in connection with signing of agreement by the Westralian Farmers?—That may have been the occasion.

5858. Were they not receiving fortnightly payments for a good part of the time?—I am not furnished with the particulars to show that they were. Up to a certain extent there was no trouble whatever.

5859. Do you not think that the Westralian Farmers would see that the agreement was carried into effect?—Yes, but that might take a little time.

5860. You consider that the price the Westralian Farmers quoted for handling wheat this year is too hot?—I say it was too low for our particular line. It is absurd to say that a man should handle wheat at a siding where a thousand bags are coming in for the same price as 5,000 bags.

5861. Have you found that there has been any interference on the part of the Scheme officials ?—We have had no trouble with the inspectors. On one occasion Mr. Sabine came up in the car with our own inspector, and went along the line, ad on other occasions he has gone out in the train and come back in the same train.

5862. Seeing that the trains stop for a certain time at the sidings, would there not be sufficient time for the inspector to see the stack ?—Possibly; but what good has it done, looking at the stacks?

5863. He could see whether the work was well done or not. As he did not make any complaints, is that proof that he was satisfied with your work ?—Take the Nyabing stack: there was iron there which the Westralian Farmers had from last year. The rain came and it was allowed to wet the stack, while the material which could have been used to cover it was lying n the ground. All the early rains fell on the wheat.

5864. If I were doing a job for you, you would find it necessary to make an inspection of it?—Undoubtedly.

5865. Then is it not necessary for the Scheme to have an inspector?—When the work was completed it could be seen whether it was done properly. Why did not the inspector say when the rainy season was approaching that the stack should be covered.

5866. You agree that the Westralian Farmers, Ltd., found it necessary to protect their interests by appointing an inspector. Would not that apply also to the Scheme?—If you wanted a tree cut down you would let the contract for cutting down the whole of it, and not in sections. The Scheme let to the Westralian Farmers a portion of the work in connection with the wheat handling, that is, receiving the wheat, but not looking after it.

5867. Do you not think it is just as necessary for the Scheme to appoint inspectors to look after the Westralian Farmers as it is for the Westralian Farmers to look after you?—I agree with you, provided the Scheme think it necessary to let half of the contract. My complaint is that the contract is in the form we find it in to-day, that the Scheme let only a portion of the work to the Westralian Farmers, and then stop at that.

5868. You are of the opinion that the responsibility of protecting the wheat at the sidings should be with the acquiring agents?—I think the whole of the responsibility should be with the acquiring agents. So far as the farmers are concerned, we would see that there was no swindling with regard to the delivery of inferior quality wheat. The Scheme inspectors are supposed to supervise the wheat, but what good do they do? What advantage can be gained by double supervision? Even by watching Government work you must come to the conclusion that it is not done as economically as the work which is done by private enterprise.

5869. Is that merely supposition on your part or general talk?—I have watched Government men working, and all I can say is I wish I had as easy a time. Of course I have seen Government men working very well.

5870. You seem to think that a man who works for the Government is dishonest?—I do not think that, but I think that when you once create a Government department it becomes complicated. You have to be sure that everything is correct, and it is always costly.

5871. There are four inspectors under the Westralian Farmers, and the Scheme have four. The Westralian Farmers think it necessary that they should watch their sub-agents, who claim that they own the wheat and are handling their own property. Therefore, the Westralian Farmers consider it necessary to have these four inspectors to supervise what is done. The Scheme, on behalf of the State, has the greatest interest in the wheat on account of the amount which is guaranteed for it, and you do not think it is necessary for the protection of that large amount which has been guaranteed to have a similar number of inspectors as have the Westralian Farmers, whose liability is considerably smaller?—It is not necessary to do the same work. The Westralian Farmers' inspectors would do the work more efficiently than the Government inspectors. The Westralian Farmers are able to devote more attention to the work, because they have other business to attend to which keeps their inspector constantly in touch with the growers.

5872. Would you be surprised to know that because they have other business to attend to the inspectors of the Westralian Farmers cannot give time to instruct the inexperienced sub-agents as to how they should properly handle the wheat?—So far as we are concerned we have no inexperienced sub-agents. Our sub-agents have handled wheat for years.

5873. By Mr. HARRISON: You stated that you employ a lumper named Kamble, and that he sent weevily wheat to Tambellup?—Yes.

5874. Did he notify Tambellup?—I do not think so. He was a lumper; he was not paid as a handler of wheat.

5875. Was he responsible for receiving the wheat, or was anyone else responsible for the supervision of it?—We, the Southern Farmers, Ltd., are responsible for it.

5876. You have said in effect that the farmers have an interest in the wheat right through the piece. If weevil was in certain wheat, was it not to the farmers' interest to see that the Tambellup depôt knew that the truck which you were sending to them was so infested?—The farmers did not know whether the truck was infested. I say probably they did not know whether it was going into the Tambellup stack or whether it was to be used as fowls' food.

5877. Do you think for the future handling of the wheat and for the protection of the farmers' asset that the acquiring agents, when they know they have weevily wheat, should advise the depôt to which the wheat is being sent?—I do, but I think they should be paid as wheat handlers, and not as lumpers. Kemble was being paid as a lumper.

5878. You understand that this Commission is appointed to inquire into the handling of the wheat, so that the future handling may be of advantage to the wheat-growers of the State, and so that they may get a better result from the asset which they grow. If we can get from witnesses something which will assist us in that direction, will it not be to the advantage of the growers?—I think the handling of wheat should be paid for on a sliding scale, as I have already stated.

5879. Kamble had some experience at wheat handling, and he was left in charge at Wurnup. Would not his interests be with those who paid him?—Except that he was merely paid as a lumper.

5880. Do you not think that if anyone handling wheat can assist the wheat growers in any way he should endeavour to do so?—From the point of view of the statesman, yes: but will you get an ordinary lumper to do it?

5881. Do you think that a man in any employment does not take any interest in the work he performs?—To a certain extent he does, but if you pay a man for lumping bags do you expect him to enter into a correspondence?

5882. There is another party between the lumper and the acquiring agent, the Westralian Farmers. Is the responsibility theirs for sending that weevily wheat to Tambellup?—Perhaps, but they cannot watch every bag of wheat that is put into the truck.

5883. Would it be too much trouble for those who got something for supervision to make inquiries from the lumpers as to the quality of the wheat?—Not only do we not get anything, but last season we got a minus